Discussion:
[Apcupsd-users] BR1500G with BR24BPG not being recognized.
whitekn3
2017-05-18 15:24:05 UTC
Permalink
I have an APC BR1500G with an external BR24BPG backup pack. Even after doing
the "Brain Dead" on the main unit the run time does not change when I plug
in the external battery pack.

Is this normal? If not, could it be a bad battery pack?

I am not seeing any errors or indications of battery problems. (Manual Self
test passes, Auto-test passes.) However, when the power recently went off
run time was very short! (8 minutes at 200 watts load).

I did buy a new APC replacement pack for the main unit, and that did not
help. I am also testing the batteries from the external unit and they seem
weak to me. (12.3v to 12.4v when I first got the case open after unplugging
it from BR1500. 13.3v just off charger, dropping to 12.7v after a short
time.)



--
View this message in context: http://apcupsd-ups-control-software.10985.n7.nabble.com/BR1500G-with-BR24BPG-not-being-recognized-tp10044.html
Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Pavel Boček
2017-05-19 04:08:06 UTC
Permalink
Not sure about this G version, but Back-UPS RS used to be just a dumb line-
interactive unit. I think this series only has display, the electronics is
slightly different but I did not get the impression it is any more
inteligent or better build. After all, especially the BR1500G model drops
like flies with F02 error IIRC.




Maybe, just maybe, if you do runtime calibration, or full discharge, than
something would change. But the Back RS indeed had no such capability as the
Smart series, it was more or less just guessing runtime from the wind
blowing than actually measuring anything.





That BR24BPG pack is original? I can imagine they don't sell whole lot of
them, APC is about 2-3times overpriced as those are just Long (or something
similar) batteries with expensive cable and sticker hiding the true
manufacturer. I would never ever buy something like that myself when all you
need is to get the cable and even if you buy Panasonic than, you usually
still save considerable amount. Could indeed be bad from old age, lead-acid
should hold the charger over 13 V (open-circuit) for a "little" while after
full recharge. The other question is if it is actually fully chargerd
already, the charger PSU in these units is not particularly powerfull and it
takes ages to charge both internal and external batteries.
--
S uctivÃœm pozdravem/best regards,

Pavel Boček
Jabber: ***@jabber.cz
+420 739 190 151
http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors and
more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)

---------- Původní e-mail ----------
Od: whitekn3 <***@fessenden.com>
Komu: apcupsd-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Datum: 18. 5. 2017 23:10:42
Předmět: [Apcupsd-users] BR1500G with BR24BPG not being recognized.
"I have an APC BR1500G with an external BR24BPG backup pack. Even after
doing
the "Brain Dead" on the main unit the run time does not change when I plug
in the external battery pack.

Is this normal? If not, could it be a bad battery pack?

I am not seeing any errors or indications of battery problems. (Manual Self
test passes, Auto-test passes.) However, when the power recently went off
run time was very short! (8 minutes at 200 watts load).

I did buy a new APC replacement pack for the main unit, and that did not
help. I am also testing the batteries from the external unit and they seem
weak to me. (12.3v to 12.4v when I first got the case open after unplugging
it from BR1500. 13.3v just off charger, dropping to 12.7v after a short
time.)
--
View this message in context: http://apcupsd-ups-control-software.10985.n7.
nabble.com/BR1500G-with-BR24BPG-not-being-recognized-tp10044.html
Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Apcupsd-users mailing list
Apcupsd-***@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users
"
Ted Mittelstaedt
2017-05-19 07:37:39 UTC
Permalink
Hi All,

OK let's have some discussion on APC ups models.

The BR24BPG battery pack appears to only be for use with the APC Backups
1500 RS. This is buried in the user manual here:

http://www.apc.com/salestools/EALN-7V5MXA/EALN-7V5MXA_R2_EN.pdf

Here is a picture of a BackUPS 1500 RS:

http://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/products/APC-BACK-UPS-RS-1500VA-LCD-120V/P-BR1500LCD?isCurrentSite=true

Here is a picture of a BackUPS 1500 G:

http://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/products/APC-Power-Saving-Back-UPS-Pro-1500/P-BR1500G

Now, with that said, the 1500RS is listed as discontinued and the 1500G
is listed as it's replacement. SO, supposedly it would work - except
that it's own sales docs say that it won't - so I really think you need
to contact APC's technical support.

IMHO, if the runtime on your BR1500G does NOT increase when you plug in
a BR24BPG external battery pack then it won't work.

OVERALL, I DO NOT EVER recommend attempting to plug in additional or
external battery packs to a BackUPS. The BackUPS line is, as Pavel
said, not much better built than the older dumb BackUPS. My own
experience with the BackUPS line is that when it comes to apcupsd,
sometimes they work - sometimes they don't. I have had BX1500Gs work,
and BackUPS ESs work, with apcupsd. I've also had BackUPS ES's -not- work.

Now as for the batteries themselves-

The BT24BPG uses a RBC11 battery pack. But, all that this is, is 2 12v
18ah lead acid gel cells stuck together with mounting tape and the front
terminals connected together and the back terminals connected to a plug.

12v is resting battery voltage. Not 13, not 12.7, not 14. 12.0v! I
have had MANY YEARS experience with lead-acid batteries and I assure you
YOU CANNOT tell how good a battery is by measuring terminal voltage. I
also do NOT trust those "internal resistance" digital battery testers.
In my experience the only way to test is with a resistance pile. For
$20USD you can buy a 100 amp tester for testing car batteries with a
meter and resistance pile in it. Take a fresh lead acid gel cell, make
sure it's fully charged, and apply the tester, then tap the test switch
for a second and observe the meter needle. Then do the same test to
your used/charged batteries. If you don't get substantively the same
meter deflection - the battery is shot.

You can also easily use an ordinary auto resistance light bulb for
battery testing along with a volt-ohm meter.

Ted
Post by Pavel Boček
Not sure about this G version, but Back-UPS RS used to be just a dumb
line-interactive unit. I think this series only has display, the
electronics is slightly different but I did not get the impression it
is any more inteligent or better build. After all, especially the
BR1500G model drops like flies with F02 error IIRC.
Maybe, just maybe, if you do runtime calibration, or full discharge,
than something would change. But the Back RS indeed had no such
capability as the Smart series, it was more or less just guessing
runtime from the wind blowing than actually measuring anything.
That BR24BPG pack is original? I can imagine they don't sell whole lot
of them, APC is about 2-3times overpriced as those are just Long (or
something similar) batteries with expensive cable and sticker hiding
the true manufacturer. I would never ever buy something like that
myself when all you need is to get the cable and even if you buy
Panasonic than, you usually still save considerable amount. Could
indeed be bad from old age, lead-acid should hold the charger over 13
V (open-circuit) for a "little" while after full recharge. The other
question is if it is actually fully chargerd already, the charger PSU
in these units is not particularly powerfull and it takes ages to
charge both internal and external batteries.
--
S uctivÃœm pozdravem/best regards,
Pavel Boček
+420 739 190 151
http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie
aj./capacitors and more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)
---------- Původní e-mail ----------
Datum: 18. 5. 2017 23:10:42
Předmět: [Apcupsd-users] BR1500G with BR24BPG not being recognized.
I have an APC BR1500G with an external BR24BPG backup pack. Even
after doing
the "Brain Dead" on the main unit the run time does not change when I plug
in the external battery pack.
Is this normal? If not, could it be a bad battery pack?
I am not seeing any errors or indications of battery problems. (Manual Self
test passes, Auto-test passes.) However, when the power recently went off
run time was very short! (8 minutes at 200 watts load).
I did buy a new APC replacement pack for the main unit, and that did not
help. I am also testing the batteries from the external unit and they seem
weak to me. (12.3v to 12.4v when I first got the case open after unplugging
it from BR1500. 13.3v just off charger, dropping to 12.7v after a short
time.)
--
http://apcupsd-ups-control-software.10985.n7.nabble.com/BR1500G-with-BR24BPG-not-being-recognized-tp10044.html
Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Apcupsd-users mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Apcupsd-users mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users
whitekn3
2017-05-19 13:55:33 UTC
Permalink
This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.
Pavel Boček
2017-05-19 15:34:04 UTC
Permalink
Well the idea behind these more powerfull RS models is that they have fan,
so they are supposed to work for extended periods without overheating (and
exploding). Though the RS is prone to failing, blasting transistors, even
with just the basic internal pack (as it is just not robust enough and the
protection circuitry is often too slow to survive what Smart-UPS survives
over and over).



As for meters, there are very basic meters, pretty much childs toy, and than
there are very expensive pro meters. I only know about one taiwanese meter
comparable to the japanese ones and it costs 2/5 their price, but is still
expensive. There is no reason why this should not be accurate, accumulator
is not that much far from capacitor (dry one, but wet behave very much the
same) and the technique to measure them is often similar. What's more
important is that ESR is only one of few important parameters and alone it
won't tell that much.
--
S uctivÃœm pozdravem/best regards,

Pavel Boček
Jabber: ***@jabber.cz
+420 739 190 151
http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors and
more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)

---------- Původní e-mail ----------
Od: Ted Mittelstaedt <***@mittelstaedt.us>
Komu: apcupsd-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Datum: 19. 5. 2017 9:41:14
Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] BR1500G with BR24BPG not being recognized.
"

Hi All,

OK let's have some discussion on APC ups models.

The BR24BPG battery pack appears to only be for use with the APC Backups
1500 RS.  This is buried in the user manual here:

http://www.apc.com/salestools/EALN-7V5MXA/EALN-7V5MXA_R2_EN.pdf
(http://www.apc.com/salestools/EALN-7V5MXA/EALN-7V5MXA_R2_EN.pdf)

Here is a picture of a BackUPS 1500 RS:

http://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/products/APC-BACK-UPS-RS-1500VA-LCD-120V/P-BR
1500LCD?isCurrentSite=true
(http://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/products/APC-BACK-UPS-RS-1500VA-LCD-120V/P-BR1500LCD?isCurrentSite=true)

Here is a picture of a BackUPS 1500 G:

http://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/products/APC-Power-Saving-Back-UPS-Pro-1500/P-
BR1500G
(http://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/products/APC-Power-Saving-Back-UPS-Pro-1500/P-BR1500G)

Now, with that said, the 1500RS is listed as discontinued and the 1500G is
listed as it's replacement. SO, supposedly it would work - except that it's
own sales docs say that it won't - so I really think you need to contact
APC's technical support.

IMHO, if the runtime on your BR1500G does NOT increase when you plug in a BR
24BPG external battery pack then it won't work. 


OVERALL, I DO NOT EVER recommend attempting to plug in additional or
external battery packs to a BackUPS.  The BackUPS line is, as Pavel said,
not much better built than the older dumb BackUPS.  My own experience with
the BackUPS line is that when it comes to apcupsd, sometimes they work -
sometimes they don't.  I have had BX1500Gs work, and BackUPS ESs work, with
apcupsd.  I've also had BackUPS ES's -not- work.


Now as for the batteries themselves-

The BT24BPG uses a RBC11 battery pack.  But, all that this is, is 2 12v 18ah
lead acid gel cells stuck together with mounting tape and the front
terminals connected together and the back terminals connected to a plug.

12v is resting battery voltage.  Not 13, not 12.7, not 14.   12.0v!  I have
had MANY YEARS experience with lead-acid batteries and I assure you YOU
CANNOT tell how good a battery is by measuring terminal voltage.  I also do
NOT trust those "internal resistance" digital battery testers.  In my
experience the only way to test is with a resistance pile.  For $20USD you
can buy a 100 amp tester for testing car batteries with a meter and
resistance pile in it.  Take a fresh lead acid gel cell, make sure it's
fully charged, and apply the tester, then tap the test switch for a second
and observe the meter needle.  Then do the same test to your used/charged
batteries.  If you don't get substantively the same meter deflection - the
battery is shot.

You can also easily use an ordinary auto resistance light bulb for battery
testing along with a volt-ohm meter.

Ted


On 5/18/2017 9:08 PM, Pavel Boček wrote:

"
Not sure about this G version, but Back-UPS RS used to be just a dumb line-
interactive unit. I think this series only has display, the electronics is
slightly different but I did not get the impression it is any more
inteligent or better build. After all, especially the BR1500G model drops
like flies with F02 error IIRC.




Maybe, just maybe, if you do runtime calibration, or full discharge, than
something would change. But the Back RS indeed had no such capability as the
Smart series, it was more or less just guessing runtime from the wind
blowing than actually measuring anything.





That BR24BPG pack is original? I can imagine they don't sell whole lot of
them, APC is about 2-3times overpriced as those are just Long (or something
similar) batteries with expensive cable and sticker hiding the true
manufacturer. I would never ever buy something like that myself when all you
need is to get the cable and even if you buy Panasonic than, you usually
still save considerable amount. Could indeed be bad from old age, lead-acid
should hold the charger over 13 V (open-circuit) for a "little" while after
full recharge. The other question is if it is actually fully chargerd
already, the charger PSU in these units is not particularly powerfull and it
takes ages to charge both internal and external batteries.
--
S uctivÃœm pozdravem/best regards,

Pavel Boček
Jabber: ***@jabber.cz(mailto:***@jabber.cz)
+420 739 190 151
http://www.hwworld.cz(http://www.hwworld.cz) (kondenzátory, akumulátory,
baterie aj./capacitors and more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com(http://www.hardwareinsights.com) (power
supply reviews and more)

---------- Původní e-mail ----------
Od: whitekn3 <***@fessenden.com>(mailto:***@fessenden.com)
Komu: apcupsd-***@lists.sourceforge.net
(mailto:apcupsd-***@lists.sourceforge.net)
Datum: 18. 5. 2017 23:10:42
Předmět: [Apcupsd-users] BR1500G with BR24BPG not being recognized.
"I have an APC BR1500G with an external BR24BPG backup pack. Even after
doing
the "Brain Dead" on the main unit the run time does not change when I plug
in the external battery pack.

Is this normal? If not, could it be a bad battery pack?

I am not seeing any errors or indications of battery problems. (Manual Self

test passes, Auto-test passes.) However, when the power recently went off
run time was very short! (8 minutes at 200 watts load).

I did buy a new APC replacement pack for the main unit, and that did not
help. I am also testing the batteries from the external unit and they seem
weak to me. (12.3v to 12.4v when I first got the case open after unplugging

it from BR1500. 13.3v just off charger, dropping to 12.7v after a short
time.)
--
View this message in context: http://apcupsd-ups-control-software.10985.n7.
nabble.com/BR1500G-with-BR24BPG-not-being-recognized-tp10044.html
(http://apcupsd-ups-control-software.10985.n7.nabble.com/BR1500G-with-BR24BPG-not-being-recognized-tp10044.html)
Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
(http://sdm.link/slashdot)
_______________________________________________
Apcupsd-users mailing list
Apcupsd-***@lists.sourceforge.net
(mailto:Apcupsd-***@lists.sourceforge.net)
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users
(https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users)
"




------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! <a href='http://sdm.link/slashdot'>http://sdm.link/slashdot</a>





_______________________________________________
Apcupsd-users mailing list
<a href='mailto:Apcupsd-***@lists.sourceforge.net'>Apcupsd-***@lists.sourceforge.net</a>
<a href='https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users'>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users</a>

"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot_________________
______________________________
Apcupsd-users mailing list
Apcupsd-***@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users
"
Ted Mittelstaedt
2017-05-21 18:17:08 UTC
Permalink
This is exactly why I recommend pile testing. With resistance testing
the only thing you are measuring is pure current and even the cheapest
and worst VOM on the market will work. All you are doing is making a
comparison measurement. Pile+meter on good battery, look at where the
needle deflects to. Pile+meter on unknown battery, look at where the
needle deflects to.

With experience this will give you all you need to know about the state
of a lead acid battery.

A "weak" lead acid battery is merely a lead acid batter with higher
internal resistance because it's in that region of where significant
sulfation has happened but not enough to completely block current flow.

Sulfation in UPS batteries isn't caused by multiple short or even long
outages.

It is caused by the charger in the UPS not having the correct settings
for the battery - and for years and years of consistent undercharging.

Both overcharging and undercharging wrecks lead acid batteries and gel
cells are very sensitive to it. Undercharging causes sulfation and then
eventually no matter how much charge current you dump into it, the
battery will never fully charge - and during discharge you get limited
current flow. Overcharging causes the electrolyte to boil away and
fail to recombine into the gel again, then the battery balloons up and
ruptures.


Ted
Post by Pavel Boček
Well the idea behind these more powerfull RS models is that they have
fan, so they are supposed to work for extended periods without
overheating (and exploding). Though the RS is prone to failing, blasting
transistors, even with just the basic internal pack (as it is just not
robust enough and the protection circuitry is often too slow to survive
what Smart-UPS survives over and over).
As for meters, there are very basic meters, pretty much childs toy, and
than there are very expensive pro meters. I only know about one
taiwanese meter comparable to the japanese ones and it costs 2/5 their
price, but is still expensive. There is no reason why this should not be
accurate, accumulator is not that much far from capacitor (dry one, but
wet behave very much the same) and the technique to measure them is
often similar. What's more important is that ESR is only one of few
important parameters and alone it won't tell that much.
--
S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,
Pavel Boček
+420 739 190 151
http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors
and more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)
---------- Původní e-mail ----------
Datum: 19. 5. 2017 9:41:14
Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] BR1500G with BR24BPG not being recognized.
Hi All,
OK let's have some discussion on APC ups models.
The BR24BPG battery pack appears to only be for use with the APC
http://www.apc.com/salestools/EALN-7V5MXA/EALN-7V5MXA_R2_EN.pdf
http://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/products/APC-BACK-UPS-RS-1500VA-LCD-120V/P-BR1500LCD?isCurrentSite=true
http://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/products/APC-Power-Saving-Back-UPS-Pro-1500/P-BR1500G
Now, with that said, the 1500RS is listed as discontinued and the
1500G is listed as it's replacement. SO, supposedly it would work -
except that it's own sales docs say that it won't - so I really
think you need to contact APC's technical support.
IMHO, if the runtime on your BR1500G does NOT increase when you plug
in a BR24BPG external battery pack then it won't work.
OVERALL, I DO NOT EVER recommend attempting to plug in additional or
external battery packs to a BackUPS. The BackUPS line is, as Pavel
said, not much better built than the older dumb BackUPS. My own
experience with the BackUPS line is that when it comes to apcupsd,
sometimes they work - sometimes they don't. I have had BX1500Gs
work, and BackUPS ESs work, with apcupsd. I've also had BackUPS
ES's -not- work.
Now as for the batteries themselves-
The BT24BPG uses a RBC11 battery pack. But, all that this is, is 2
12v 18ah lead acid gel cells stuck together with mounting tape and
the front terminals connected together and the back terminals
connected to a plug.
12v is resting battery voltage. Not 13, not 12.7, not 14. 12.0v!
I have had MANY YEARS experience with lead-acid batteries and I
assure you YOU CANNOT tell how good a battery is by measuring
terminal voltage. I also do NOT trust those "internal resistance"
digital battery testers. In my experience the only way to test is
with a resistance pile. For $20USD you can buy a 100 amp tester for
testing car batteries with a meter and resistance pile in it. Take
a fresh lead acid gel cell, make sure it's fully charged, and apply
the tester, then tap the test switch for a second and observe the
meter needle. Then do the same test to your used/charged
batteries. If you don't get substantively the same meter deflection
- the battery is shot.
You can also easily use an ordinary auto resistance light bulb for
battery testing along with a volt-ohm meter.
Ted
Not sure about this G version, but Back-UPS RS used to be just a
dumb line-interactive unit. I think this series only has
display, the electronics is slightly different but I did not get
the impression it is any more inteligent or better build. After
all, especially the BR1500G model drops like flies with F02
error IIRC.
Maybe, just maybe, if you do runtime calibration, or full
discharge, than something would change. But the Back RS indeed
had no such capability as the Smart series, it was more or less
just guessing runtime from the wind blowing than actually
measuring anything.
That BR24BPG pack is original? I can imagine they don't sell
whole lot of them, APC is about 2-3times overpriced as those are
just Long (or something similar) batteries with expensive cable
and sticker hiding the true manufacturer. I would never ever buy
something like that myself when all you need is to get the cable
and even if you buy Panasonic than, you usually still save
considerable amount. Could indeed be bad from old age, lead-acid
should hold the charger over 13 V (open-circuit) for a "little"
while after full recharge. The other question is if it is
actually fully chargerd already, the charger PSU in these units
is not particularly powerfull and it takes ages to charge both
internal and external batteries.
--
S uctivým pozdravem/best regards,
Pavel Boček
+420 739 190 151
http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie
aj./capacitors and more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)
---------- Původní e-mail ----------
Datum: 18. 5. 2017 23:10:42
Předmět: [Apcupsd-users] BR1500G with BR24BPG not being recognized.
I have an APC BR1500G with an external BR24BPG backup pack.
Even after doing
the "Brain Dead" on the main unit the run time does not
change when I plug
in the external battery pack.
Is this normal? If not, could it be a bad battery pack?
I am not seeing any errors or indications of battery
problems. (Manual Self
test passes, Auto-test passes.) However, when the power
recently went off
run time was very short! (8 minutes at 200 watts load).
I did buy a new APC replacement pack for the main unit, and
that did not
help. I am also testing the batteries from the external unit
and they seem
weak to me. (12.3v to 12.4v when I first got the case open
after unplugging
it from BR1500. 13.3v just off charger, dropping to 12.7v
after a short
time.)
--
http://apcupsd-ups-control-software.10985.n7.nabble.com/BR1500G-with-BR24BPG-not-being-recognized-tp10044.html
Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Apcupsd-users mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Apcupsd-users mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
Apcupsd-users mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Apcupsd-users mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users
Pavel Boček
2017-05-21 18:36:21 UTC
Permalink
I think it's kinda more complicated, battery can have high ESR and almost
nominal capacity, or almost nominal ESR and low capacity. With those devices
you describe you can only aproximatelly tell if the ESR is still low enough
(=battery can provide high current) but you have no idea about the capacity
(how long is it going to last when being discharged).




There are almost no gel accumulators, definitelly not for UPS, those are all
AGM, this is common mistake.





Also many more factors than just the charging voltage play a role in battery
life, besides material/chemistry quality for example temperature, the
frequency of discharging, the depth of discharge etc. For everybody who's
interested in this subject, there is wonderfull material here http://
jgdarden.com/batteryfaq/
--
S uctivÃœm pozdravem/best regards,

Pavel Boček
Jabber: ***@jabber.cz
+420 739 190 151
http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors and
more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)

---------- Původní e-mail ----------
Od: Ted Mittelstaedt <***@mittelstaedt.us>
Komu: apcupsd-***@lists.sourceforge.net
Datum: 21. 5. 2017 20:20:47
Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] BR1500G with BR24BPG not being recognized.
"This is exactly why I recommend pile testing. With resistance testing
the only thing you are measuring is pure current and even the cheapest
and worst VOM on the market will work. All you are doing is making a
comparison measurement. Pile+meter on good battery, look at where the
needle deflects to. Pile+meter on unknown battery, look at where the
needle deflects to.

With experience this will give you all you need to know about the state
of a lead acid battery.

A "weak" lead acid battery is merely a lead acid batter with higher
internal resistance because it's in that region of where significant
sulfation has happened but not enough to completely block current flow.

Sulfation in UPS batteries isn't caused by multiple short or even long
outages.

It is caused by the charger in the UPS not having the correct settings
for the battery - and for years and years of consistent undercharging.

Both overcharging and undercharging wrecks lead acid batteries and gel
cells are very sensitive to it. Undercharging causes sulfation and then
eventually no matter how much charge current you dump into it, the
battery will never fully charge - and during discharge you get limited
current flow. Overcharging causes the electrolyte to boil away and
fail to recombine into the gel again, then the battery balloons up and
ruptures.


Ted
Post by Pavel Boček
Well the idea behind these more powerfull RS models is that they have
fan, so they are supposed to work for extended periods without
overheating (and exploding). Though the RS is prone to failing, blasting
transistors, even with just the basic internal pack (as it is just not
robust enough and the protection circuitry is often too slow to survive
what Smart-UPS survives over and over).
As for meters, there are very basic meters, pretty much childs toy, and
than there are very expensive pro meters. I only know about one
taiwanese meter comparable to the japanese ones and it costs 2/5 their
price, but is still expensive. There is no reason why this should not be
accurate, accumulator is not that much far from capacitor (dry one, but
wet behave very much the same) and the technique to measure them is
often similar. What's more important is that ESR is only one of few
important parameters and alone it won't tell that much.
--
S uctivÃœm pozdravem/best regards,
Pavel Boček
+420 739 190 151
http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors
and more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)
---------- Původní e-mail ----------
Datum: 19. 5. 2017 9:41:14
Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] BR1500G with BR24BPG not being recognized.
Hi All,
OK let's have some discussion on APC ups models.
The BR24BPG battery pack appears to only be for use with the APC
http://www.apc.com/salestools/EALN-7V5MXA/EALN-7V5MXA_R2_EN.pdf
http://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/products/APC-BACK-UPS-RS-1500VA-LCD-120V/P-
BR1500LCD?isCurrentSite=true
Post by Pavel Boček
http://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/products/APC-Power-Saving-Back-UPS-Pro-1500/
P-BR1500G
Post by Pavel Boček
Now, with that said, the 1500RS is listed as discontinued and the
1500G is listed as it's replacement. SO, supposedly it would work -
except that it's own sales docs say that it won't - so I really
think you need to contact APC's technical support.
IMHO, if the runtime on your BR1500G does NOT increase when you plug
in a BR24BPG external battery pack then it won't work.
OVERALL, I DO NOT EVER recommend attempting to plug in additional or
external battery packs to a BackUPS. The BackUPS line is, as Pavel
said, not much better built than the older dumb BackUPS. My own
experience with the BackUPS line is that when it comes to apcupsd,
sometimes they work - sometimes they don't. I have had BX1500Gs
work, and BackUPS ESs work, with apcupsd. I've also had BackUPS
ES's -not- work.
Now as for the batteries themselves-
The BT24BPG uses a RBC11 battery pack. But, all that this is, is 2
12v 18ah lead acid gel cells stuck together with mounting tape and
the front terminals connected together and the back terminals
connected to a plug.
12v is resting battery voltage. Not 13, not 12.7, not 14. 12.0v!
I have had MANY YEARS experience with lead-acid batteries and I
assure you YOU CANNOT tell how good a battery is by measuring
terminal voltage. I also do NOT trust those "internal resistance"
digital battery testers. In my experience the only way to test is
with a resistance pile. For $20USD you can buy a 100 amp tester for
testing car batteries with a meter and resistance pile in it. Take
a fresh lead acid gel cell, make sure it's fully charged, and apply
the tester, then tap the test switch for a second and observe the
meter needle. Then do the same test to your used/charged
batteries. If you don't get substantively the same meter deflection
- the battery is shot.
You can also easily use an ordinary auto resistance light bulb for
battery testing along with a volt-ohm meter.
Ted
Not sure about this G version, but Back-UPS RS used to be just a
dumb line-interactive unit. I think this series only has
display, the electronics is slightly different but I did not get
the impression it is any more inteligent or better build. After
all, especially the BR1500G model drops like flies with F02
error IIRC.
Maybe, just maybe, if you do runtime calibration, or full
discharge, than something would change. But the Back RS indeed
had no such capability as the Smart series, it was more or less
just guessing runtime from the wind blowing than actually
measuring anything.
That BR24BPG pack is original? I can imagine they don't sell
whole lot of them, APC is about 2-3times overpriced as those are
just Long (or something similar) batteries with expensive cable
and sticker hiding the true manufacturer. I would never ever buy
something like that myself when all you need is to get the cable
and even if you buy Panasonic than, you usually still save
considerable amount. Could indeed be bad from old age, lead-acid
should hold the charger over 13 V (open-circuit) for a "little"
while after full recharge. The other question is if it is
actually fully chargerd already, the charger PSU in these units
is not particularly powerfull and it takes ages to charge both
internal and external batteries.
--
S uctivÃœm pozdravem/best regards,
Pavel Boček
+420 739 190 151
http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie
aj./capacitors and more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)
---------- Původní e-mail ----------
Datum: 18. 5. 2017 23:10:42
Předmět: [Apcupsd-users] BR1500G with BR24BPG not being recognized.
I have an APC BR1500G with an external BR24BPG backup pack.
Even after doing
the "Brain Dead" on the main unit the run time does not
change when I plug
in the external battery pack.
Is this normal? If not, could it be a bad battery pack?
I am not seeing any errors or indications of battery
problems. (Manual Self
test passes, Auto-test passes.) However, when the power
recently went off
run time was very short! (8 minutes at 200 watts load).
I did buy a new APC replacement pack for the main unit, and
that did not
help. I am also testing the batteries from the external unit
and they seem
weak to me. (12.3v to 12.4v when I first got the case open
after unplugging
it from BR1500. 13.3v just off charger, dropping to 12.7v
after a short
time.)
--
http://apcupsd-ups-control-software.10985.n7.nabble.com/BR1500G-with-BR24
BPG-not-being-recognized-tp10044.html
Post by Pavel Boček
Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Post by Pavel Boček
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Apcupsd-users mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Post by Pavel Boček
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Apcupsd-users mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Post by Pavel Boček
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
Apcupsd-users mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Post by Pavel Boček
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Apcupsd-users mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
Loading...