[Apcupsd-users] Refurbishing old APC UPSes

[David Ranch]

Hello Mihalik,

When you say "replaced the old capacitors", are you talking about the
big electrolytic caps on the board or also all the small caps scattered
around on the boards as well? If I may ask, what were the symptoms of
the UPS failure that after replacing the caps, the UPS worked again?

I have a 1996 SUA1000 that won't charge it's batteries but it fine
otherwise that I'd like to repair if possible. I went through it
multiple times, didn't see any component burn marks, all fuses are OK
(big and small), no bulging capacitors, went through all the caps with
an ESR meter and they all seemed ok, etc.

--David

Actually both arguments have truth. Older units were made with
different preferences and marketing strategy in mind than newer ones.
Now companies do not make devices which last for two decades but that
is for multiple reasons. One is that they realized if they made so,
people wouldn't be forced to buy new devices which is not profitable
in the long run. Other reason is that new devices quickly deprecate
older ones in terms of features, so there is no point in making them
last for a long time. I find this later one less important when
talking about consumer grade UPSes though, since the concept remains
the same through time: you need backup power and pc manage features,
and units had this back in the 90s already just like they do now. So
personally I find little motivation to replace my old SU900I which
will turn 23 years old this year and works just as fine as any newer
would, especially now that I replaced the old capacitors.
You cannot, however, precisely judge newer units against old ones.
I've seen compaq ups-es stored in 2016 from 1998 with their original
batteries left inside and they work well after a battery replacement.
Of course this means that despite their age, they have seen little or
no use at all in the past 18 years, whereas some of the sua750 units
made in 2006 already had 2-3 battery replacements and were utilized
extensively in the past 10 years. I think if you refurbish the units
every 6 years and you operate them in a controlled environment, then
you will likely have a long lasting ups no matter if new or old.

[Pavel Boček]

I have yet to see an APC unit where at least some of them 22uF capacitors
are not failing at least, if they are not dead for a long time already, so
maybe check it again. The older units had some quality caps though often the
22uF ones were some C(r)apXon or something similar, and those were of course
bad. The newer the version, the worse caps they used, with pretty much
expected results





I suggest opening a thread at BadCaps forums here: http://www.badcaps.net/
forum/forumdisplay.php?f=32 maybe we'll think of something
--
S uctivÃœm pozdravem/best regards,

Pavel Boček
Jabber: ***@jabber.cz
[phone]
http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors and
more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)


---------- Původní zpráva ----------
Od: David Ranch <***@trinnet.net>
Komu: Apcupsd Discussion List <apcupsd-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Datum: 25. 3. 2017 16:36:48
Předmět: [Apcupsd-users] Refurbishing old APC UPSes

"
Hello Mihalik,

When you say "replaced the old capacitors", are you talking about the big
electrolytic caps on the board or also all the small caps scattered around
on the boards as well?  If I may ask, what were the symptoms of the UPS
failure that after replacing the caps, the UPS worked again?

I have a 1996 SUA1000 that won't charge it's batteries but it fine otherwise
that I'd like to repair if possible.  I went through it multiple times,
didn't see any component burn marks, all fuses are OK (big and small), no
bulging capacitors, went through all the caps with an ESR meter and they all
seemed ok, etc.

--David



On 03/25/2017 08:22 AM, Mihalik Máté wrote:

"
Actually both arguments have truth. Older units were made with different
preferences and marketing strategy in mind than newer ones. Now companies do
not make devices which last for two decades but that is for multiple
reasons. One is that they realized if they made so, people wouldn't be
forced to buy new devices which is not profitable in the long run.  Other
reason is that new devices quickly deprecate older ones in terms of
features, so there is no point in making them last for a long time. I find
this later one less important when talking about consumer grade UPSes
though, since the concept remains the same through time: you need backup
power and pc manage features, and units had this back in the 90s already
just like they do now. So personally I find little motivation to replace my
old SU900I which will turn 23 years old this year and works just as fine as
any newer would, especially now that I replaced the old capacitors. 



You cannot, however, precisely judge newer units against old ones.  I've
seen compaq ups-es stored in 2016 from 1998 with their original batteries
left inside and they work well after a battery replacement.  Of course this
means that despite their age, they have seen little or no use at all in the
past 18 years, whereas some of the sua750 units made in 2006 already had 2-3
battery replacements and were utilized extensively in the past 10 years. I
think if you refurbish the units every 6 years and you operate them in a
controlled environment, then you will likely have a long lasting ups no
matter if new or old.


"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Mihalik Máté]

Hello,
My ups was working fine, the capacitor replacement is a method of
preventing problems before they happen due to aging. I replaced only the
smaller capacitors, the large spraguelytic buffer caps next to the
heatsinks do not need replacement most of the time. If your ups does not
charge the batteries, it might be due to one or more blown resistors in the
charging circuit, or a semiconductor died (eg a transistor or the charging
IC)


2017. márc. 25. du. 4:35 ezt írta ("David Ranch" <***@trinnet.net>):

Hello Mihalik,

When you say "replaced the old capacitors", are you talking about the big
electrolytic caps on the board or also all the small caps scattered around
on the boards as well? If I may ask, what were the symptoms of the UPS
failure that after replacing the caps, the UPS worked again?

I have a 1996 SUA1000 that won't charge it's batteries but it fine
otherwise that I'd like to repair if possible. I went through it multiple
times, didn't see any component burn marks, all fuses are OK (big and
small), no bulging capacitors, went through all the caps with an ESR meter
and they all seemed ok, etc.

--David


On 03/25/2017 08:22 AM, Mihalik Máté wrote:

Actually both arguments have truth. Older units were made with different
preferences and marketing strategy in mind than newer ones. Now companies
do not make devices which last for two decades but that is for multiple
reasons. One is that they realized if they made so, people wouldn't be
forced to buy new devices which is not profitable in the long run. Other
reason is that new devices quickly deprecate older ones in terms of
features, so there is no point in making them last for a long time. I find
this later one less important when talking about consumer grade UPSes
though, since the concept remains the same through time: you need backup
power and pc manage features, and units had this back in the 90s already
just like they do now. So personally I find little motivation to replace my
old SU900I which will turn 23 years old this year and works just as fine as
any newer would, especially now that I replaced the old capacitors.

You cannot, however, precisely judge newer units against old ones. I've
seen compaq ups-es stored in 2016 from 1998 with their original batteries
left inside and they work well after a battery replacement. Of course this
means that despite their age, they have seen little or no use at all in the
past 18 years, whereas some of the sua750 units made in 2006 already had
2-3 battery replacements and were utilized extensively in the past 10
years. I think if you refurbish the units every 6 years and you operate
them in a controlled environment, then you will likely have a long lasting
ups no matter if new or old.



------------------------------------------------------------
------------------
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[Mihalik Máté]

Check components: R118 - 100k 1%, R119 - 22.1k 1% (these two control the
charger voltage, might be out of tolerance, the 100k resistor value often
drifts with aging), Q5 FET, R49 - 200k 5% R48 - 10k 5%, Q37, Q6 (Q37 and Q6
are less likely to be the problem, touch these only if everything else
fails)

Post by Mihalik Máté
Hello,
My ups was working fine, the capacitor replacement is a method of
preventing problems before they happen due to aging. I replaced only the
smaller capacitors, the large spraguelytic buffer caps next to the
heatsinks do not need replacement most of the time. If your ups does not
charge the batteries, it might be due to one or more blown resistors in the
charging circuit, or a semiconductor died (eg a transistor or the charging
IC)
Hello Mihalik,
When you say "replaced the old capacitors", are you talking about the big
electrolytic caps on the board or also all the small caps scattered around
on the boards as well? If I may ask, what were the symptoms of the UPS
failure that after replacing the caps, the UPS worked again?
I have a 1996 SUA1000 that won't charge it's batteries but it fine
otherwise that I'd like to repair if possible. I went through it multiple
times, didn't see any component burn marks, all fuses are OK (big and
small), no bulging capacitors, went through all the caps with an ESR meter
and they all seemed ok, etc.
--David
Actually both arguments have truth. Older units were made with different
preferences and marketing strategy in mind than newer ones. Now companies
do not make devices which last for two decades but that is for multiple
reasons. One is that they realized if they made so, people wouldn't be
forced to buy new devices which is not profitable in the long run. Other
reason is that new devices quickly deprecate older ones in terms of
features, so there is no point in making them last for a long time. I find
this later one less important when talking about consumer grade UPSes
though, since the concept remains the same through time: you need backup
power and pc manage features, and units had this back in the 90s already
just like they do now. So personally I find little motivation to replace my
old SU900I which will turn 23 years old this year and works just as fine as
any newer would, especially now that I replaced the old capacitors.
You cannot, however, precisely judge newer units against old ones. I've
seen compaq ups-es stored in 2016 from 1998 with their original batteries
left inside and they work well after a battery replacement. Of course this
means that despite their age, they have seen little or no use at all in the
past 18 years, whereas some of the sua750 units made in 2006 already had
2-3 battery replacements and were utilized extensively in the past 10
years. I think if you refurbish the units every 6 years and you operate
them in a controlled environment, then you will likely have a long lasting
ups no matter if new or old.
------------------------------------------------------------
------------------
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_______________________________________________
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[David Ranch]

I had some more time to look at this UPS:

R118 - 100k 1% :: measured 71.9K (color codes says it should be: 70K -
violet black black brown brown)
- your expected resistor value doesn't match up here

R119 - 22.1k 1% :: measured 20.72K (color codes says it should be: 22.1K
- OK

Q5 FET - not sure how to test a transistor in-circuit

R49 - 200k 5% :: measured 96.5K (color codes says it should be: 100K
not 200k)
- your expected resistor value doesn't match up here

R48 - 10k 5% :: 9.91K (color codes says it should be: 10K) - OK

Q37 - not sure how to test a transistor in-circuit

Q6 - not sure how to test a transistor in-circuit

--David

Post by Mihalik Máté
Check components: R118 - 100k 1%, R119 - 22.1k 1% (these two control
the charger voltage, might be out of tolerance, the 100k resistor
value often drifts with aging), Q5 FET, R49 - 200k 5% R48 - 10k 5%,
Q37, Q6 (Q37 and Q6 are less likely to be the problem, touch these
only if everything else fails)

[Mihalik Máté]

Yeah, some value deviations may happen depending on board revision and
available components in the factory at the time of manufacture. You cannot
reliably test transistors inside the circuit, you need to remove them and
use your multimeter's diode check function to test them. There are a couple
of videos on youtube on how to conduct basic test on FETs and transistors.
Note that passing those tests does not always mean that the component is
100% ok but helps to filter out obvious issues with it.

Post by David Ranch
R118 - 100k 1% :: measured 71.9K (color codes says it should be: 70K -
violet black black brown brown)
- your expected resistor value doesn't match up here
R119 - 22.1k 1% :: measured 20.72K (color codes says it should be: 22.1K -
OK
Q5 FET - not sure how to test a transistor in-circuit
R49 - 200k 5% :: measured 96.5K (color codes says it should be: 100K not
200k)
- your expected resistor value doesn't match up here
R48 - 10k 5% :: 9.91K (color codes says it should be: 10K) - OK
Q37 - not sure how to test a transistor in-circuit
Q6 - not sure how to test a transistor in-circuit
--David
Check components: R118 - 100k 1%, R119 - 22.1k 1% (these two control the
charger voltage, might be out of tolerance, the 100k resistor value often
drifts with aging), Q5 FET, R49 - 200k 5% R48 - 10k 5%, Q37, Q6 (Q37 and Q6
are less likely to be the problem, touch these only if everything else
fails)
------------------------------------------------------------
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Apcupsd-users mailing list
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[David Ranch]

Hello Mihalik,

Post by Mihalik Máté
Yeah, some value deviations may happen depending on board revision and
available components in the factory at the time of manufacture.

Ok.. understood though if R118 should be 70K and I measured it at 71.9K
with an older Fluke 75 DVM, that puts it at 2.7% of 70k. Do you think
this out of spec resistor could really make the charger not create any
real current? I kinda doubt it.

Post by Mihalik Máté
You cannot reliably test transistors inside the circuit, you need to
remove them and use your multimeter's diode check function to test
them. There are a couple of videos on youtube on how to conduct basic
test on FETs and transistors. Note that passing those tests does not
always mean that the component is 100% ok but helps to filter out
obvious issues with it.

Ok.. I'll give those a try when I get a chance to pull them out of the PCB.

--David

[Mihalik Máté]

I don't think 2.7% higher resistance would cause that much trouble. If
anything, the charging voltage should be slightly higher/lower, depending
on how the IC senses the reference through the resistor.

Post by David Ranch
Hello Mihalik,
Yeah, some value deviations may happen depending on board revision and
available components in the factory at the time of manufacture.
Ok.. understood though if R118 should be 70K and I measured it at 71.9K
with an older Fluke 75 DVM, that puts it at 2.7% of 70k. Do you think this
out of spec resistor could really make the charger not create any real
current? I kinda doubt it.
You cannot reliably test transistors inside the circuit, you need to
remove them and use your multimeter's diode check function to test them.
There are a couple of videos on youtube on how to conduct basic test on
FETs and transistors. Note that passing those tests does not always mean
that the component is 100% ok but helps to filter out obvious issues with
it.
Ok.. I'll give those a try when I get a chance to pull them out of the PCB.
--David
------------------------------------------------------------
------------------
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_______________________________________________
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[David Ranch]

Replacing the resistors or a transistor is no big deal if I can figure
out how to identify it. I found one schematic that seems to be CLOSE to
my 1996 made unit but it doesn't seem to be exact so it's frustrating.
If the issue is a charging IC which I assume is proprietary to APC, I
imagine it's impossible to source from somewhere and thus, the UPS is
irreparable. Yes?

--David

Post by Mihalik Máté
Hello,
My ups was working fine, the capacitor replacement is a method of
preventing problems before they happen due to aging. I replaced only
the smaller capacitors, the large spraguelytic buffer caps next to the
heatsinks do not need replacement most of the time. If your ups does
not charge the batteries, it might be due to one or more blown
resistors in the charging circuit, or a semiconductor died (eg a
transistor or the charging IC)
Hello Mihalik,
When you say "replaced the old capacitors", are you talking about
the big electrolytic caps on the board or also all the small caps
scattered around on the boards as well? If I may ask, what were
the symptoms of the UPS failure that after replacing the caps, the
UPS worked again?
I have a 1996 SUA1000 that won't charge it's batteries but it fine
otherwise that I'd like to repair if possible. I went through it
multiple times, didn't see any component burn marks, all fuses are
OK (big and small), no bulging capacitors, went through all the
caps with an ESR meter and they all seemed ok, etc.
--David

Actually both arguments have truth. Older units were made with
different preferences and marketing strategy in mind than newer
ones. Now companies do not make devices which last for two
decades but that is for multiple reasons. One is that they
realized if they made so, people wouldn't be forced to buy new
devices which is not profitable in the long run. Other reason is
that new devices quickly deprecate older ones in terms of
features, so there is no point in making them last for a long
time. I find this later one less important when talking about
consumer grade UPSes though, since the concept remains the same
through time: you need backup power and pc manage features, and
units had this back in the 90s already just like they do now. So
personally I find little motivation to replace my old SU900I
which will turn 23 years old this year and works just as fine as
any newer would, especially now that I replaced the old capacitors.
You cannot, however, precisely judge newer units against old
ones. I've seen compaq ups-es stored in 2016 from 1998 with
their original batteries left inside and they work well after a
battery replacement. Of course this means that despite their
age, they have seen little or no use at all in the past 18 years,
whereas some of the sua750 units made in 2006 already had 2-3
battery replacements and were utilized extensively in the past 10
years. I think if you refurbish the units every 6 years and you
operate them in a controlled environment, then you will likely
have a long lasting ups no matter if new or old.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[Mihalik Máté]

Yes. It is rare that the charger ic goes bad in that generation of apc
upses though. Give the listed components a check and see if they are ok.

2017. márc. 25. du. 7:46 ezt írta ("David Ranch" <***@trinnet.net>):


Replacing the resistors or a transistor is no big deal if I can figure out
how to identify it. I found one schematic that seems to be CLOSE to my
1996 made unit but it doesn't seem to be exact so it's frustrating. If the
issue is a charging IC which I assume is proprietary to APC, I imagine it's
impossible to source from somewhere and thus, the UPS is irreparable. Yes?

--David




On 03/25/2017 09:15 AM, Mihalik Máté wrote:

Hello,
My ups was working fine, the capacitor replacement is a method of
preventing problems before they happen due to aging. I replaced only the
smaller capacitors, the large spraguelytic buffer caps next to the
heatsinks do not need replacement most of the time. If your ups does not
charge the batteries, it might be due to one or more blown resistors in the
charging circuit, or a semiconductor died (eg a transistor or the charging
IC)


2017. márc. 25. du. 4:35 ezt írta ("David Ranch" <***@trinnet.net>):

Hello Mihalik,

When you say "replaced the old capacitors", are you talking about the big
electrolytic caps on the board or also all the small caps scattered around
on the boards as well? If I may ask, what were the symptoms of the UPS
failure that after replacing the caps, the UPS worked again?

I have a 1996 SUA1000 that won't charge it's batteries but it fine
otherwise that I'd like to repair if possible. I went through it multiple
times, didn't see any component burn marks, all fuses are OK (big and
small), no bulging capacitors, went through all the caps with an ESR meter
and they all seemed ok, etc.

--David


On 03/25/2017 08:22 AM, Mihalik Máté wrote:

Actually both arguments have truth. Older units were made with different
preferences and marketing strategy in mind than newer ones. Now companies
do not make devices which last for two decades but that is for multiple
reasons. One is that they realized if they made so, people wouldn't be
forced to buy new devices which is not profitable in the long run. Other
reason is that new devices quickly deprecate older ones in terms of
features, so there is no point in making them last for a long time. I find
this later one less important when talking about consumer grade UPSes
though, since the concept remains the same through time: you need backup
power and pc manage features, and units had this back in the 90s already
just like they do now. So personally I find little motivation to replace my
old SU900I which will turn 23 years old this year and works just as fine as
any newer would, especially now that I replaced the old capacitors.

You cannot, however, precisely judge newer units against old ones. I've
seen compaq ups-es stored in 2016 from 1998 with their original batteries
left inside and they work well after a battery replacement. Of course this
means that despite their age, they have seen little or no use at all in the
past 18 years, whereas some of the sua750 units made in 2006 already had
2-3 battery replacements and were utilized extensively in the past 10
years. I think if you refurbish the units every 6 years and you operate
them in a controlled environment, then you will likely have a long lasting
ups no matter if new or old.



------------------------------------------------------------
------------------
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listApcupsd-***@lists.sourceforge.nethttps://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users



------------------------------------------------------------
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[Mihalik Máté]

The circuit board has the component numbers printed on it(some boards have
the numbers on both the component side and on the soldering side as well)
so you should be able to locate them by the numbers I wrote. Replace them
if needed with components with the same part number, or if it is not
available, then something with closely similar specifications.

Post by Mihalik Máté
Yes. It is rare that the charger ic goes bad in that generation of apc
upses though. Give the listed components a check and see if they are ok.
Replacing the resistors or a transistor is no big deal if I can figure out
how to identify it. I found one schematic that seems to be CLOSE to my
1996 made unit but it doesn't seem to be exact so it's frustrating. If the
issue is a charging IC which I assume is proprietary to APC, I imagine it's
impossible to source from somewhere and thus, the UPS is irreparable. Yes?
--David
Hello,
My ups was working fine, the capacitor replacement is a method of
preventing problems before they happen due to aging. I replaced only the
smaller capacitors, the large spraguelytic buffer caps next to the
heatsinks do not need replacement most of the time. If your ups does not
charge the batteries, it might be due to one or more blown resistors in the
charging circuit, or a semiconductor died (eg a transistor or the charging
IC)
Hello Mihalik,
When you say "replaced the old capacitors", are you talking about the big
electrolytic caps on the board or also all the small caps scattered around
on the boards as well? If I may ask, what were the symptoms of the UPS
failure that after replacing the caps, the UPS worked again?
I have a 1996 SUA1000 that won't charge it's batteries but it fine
otherwise that I'd like to repair if possible. I went through it multiple
times, didn't see any component burn marks, all fuses are OK (big and
small), no bulging capacitors, went through all the caps with an ESR meter
and they all seemed ok, etc.
--David
Actually both arguments have truth. Older units were made with different
preferences and marketing strategy in mind than newer ones. Now companies
do not make devices which last for two decades but that is for multiple
reasons. One is that they realized if they made so, people wouldn't be
forced to buy new devices which is not profitable in the long run. Other
reason is that new devices quickly deprecate older ones in terms of
features, so there is no point in making them last for a long time. I find
this later one less important when talking about consumer grade UPSes
though, since the concept remains the same through time: you need backup
power and pc manage features, and units had this back in the 90s already
just like they do now. So personally I find little motivation to replace my
old SU900I which will turn 23 years old this year and works just as fine as
any newer would, especially now that I replaced the old capacitors.
You cannot, however, precisely judge newer units against old ones. I've
seen compaq ups-es stored in 2016 from 1998 with their original batteries
left inside and they work well after a battery replacement. Of course this
means that despite their age, they have seen little or no use at all in the
past 18 years, whereas some of the sua750 units made in 2006 already had
2-3 battery replacements and were utilized extensively in the past 10
years. I think if you refurbish the units every 6 years and you operate
them in a controlled environment, then you will likely have a long lasting
ups no matter if new or old.
------------------------------------------------------------
------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
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_______________________________________________
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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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_______________________________________________
------------------------------------------------------------
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[David Ranch]

I'm working on posting two high-res pictures of the PCB (front and back)
just to make sure we're talking about the same board here. This might
take a while as the Internet routing to my website sites seems to be
broken. The URL will also include the ?Russian? schematic PDF I found.
It's not the right on but it's close in many places.

--David

Post by Mihalik Máté
The circuit board has the component numbers printed on it(some boards
have the numbers on both the component side and on the soldering side
as well) so you should be able to locate them by the numbers I wrote.
Replace them if needed with components with the same part number, or
if it is not available, then something with closely similar
specifications.
Yes. It is rare that the charger ic goes bad in that generation of
apc upses though. Give the listed components a check and see if
they are ok.
2017. márc. 25. du. 7:46 ezt írta ("David Ranch"
Replacing the resistors or a transistor is no big deal if I
can figure out how to identify it. I found one schematic that
seems to be CLOSE to my 1996 made unit but it doesn't seem to
be exact so it's frustrating. If the issue is a charging IC
which I assume is proprietary to APC, I imagine it's
impossible to source from somewhere and thus, the UPS is
irreparable. Yes?
--David

Post by Mihalik Máté
Hello,
My ups was working fine, the capacitor replacement is a
method of preventing problems before they happen due to
aging. I replaced only the smaller capacitors, the large
spraguelytic buffer caps next to the heatsinks do not need
replacement most of the time. If your ups does not charge the
batteries, it might be due to one or more blown resistors in
the charging circuit, or a semiconductor died (eg a
transistor or the charging IC)
2017. márc. 25. du. 4:35 ezt írta ("David Ranch"
Hello Mihalik,
When you say "replaced the old capacitors", are you
talking about the big electrolytic caps on the board or
also all the small caps scattered around on the boards as
well? If I may ask, what were the symptoms of the UPS
failure that after replacing the caps, the UPS worked again?
I have a 1996 SUA1000 that won't charge it's batteries
but it fine otherwise that I'd like to repair if
possible. I went through it multiple times, didn't see
any component burn marks, all fuses are OK (big and
small), no bulging capacitors, went through all the caps
with an ESR meter and they all seemed ok, etc.
--David

Actually both arguments have truth. Older units were
made with different preferences and marketing strategy
in mind than newer ones. Now companies do not make
devices which last for two decades but that is for
multiple reasons. One is that they realized if they made
so, people wouldn't be forced to buy new devices which
is not profitable in the long run. Other reason is that
new devices quickly deprecate older ones in terms of
features, so there is no point in making them last for a
long time. I find this later one less important when
talking about consumer grade UPSes though, since the
concept remains the same through time: you need backup
power and pc manage features, and units had this back in
the 90s already just like they do now. So personally I
find little motivation to replace my old SU900I which
will turn 23 years old this year and works just as fine
as any newer would, especially now that I replaced the
old capacitors.
You cannot, however, precisely judge newer units against
old ones. I've seen compaq ups-es stored in 2016 from
1998 with their original batteries left inside and they
work well after a battery replacement. Of course this
means that despite their age, they have seen little or
no use at all in the past 18 years, whereas some of the
sua750 units made in 2006 already had 2-3 battery
replacements and were utilized extensively in the past
10 years. I think if you refurbish the units every 6
years and you operate them in a controlled environment,
then you will likely have a long lasting ups no matter
if new or old.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
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<https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
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<https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________ Apcupsd-users
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users
<https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Apcupsd-users mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users

[David Ranch]

Ok.. my website is back up and I've uploaded pictures of the top and
bottom of the PCB.

Mihalik: does this board look about right for the components you
recommended to check?

http://www.trinityos.com/SCRATCH/APC-SU1000-schematic/

--David

Post by David Ranch
I'm working on posting two high-res pictures of the PCB (front and
back) just to make sure we're talking about the same board here. This
might take a while as the Internet routing to my website sites seems
to be broken. The URL will also include the ?Russian? schematic PDF I
found. It's not the right on but it's close in many places.
--David

Post by Mihalik Máté
The circuit board has the component numbers printed on it(some boards
have the numbers on both the component side and on the soldering side
as well) so you should be able to locate them by the numbers I wrote.
Replace them if needed with components with the same part number, or
if it is not available, then something with closely similar
specifications.
2017. márc. 25. du. 7:54 ezt írta ("Mihalik Máté"
Yes. It is rare that the charger ic goes bad in that generation
of apc upses though. Give the listed components a check and see
if they are ok.
2017. márc. 25. du. 7:46 ezt írta ("David Ranch"
Replacing the resistors or a transistor is no big deal if I
can figure out how to identify it. I found one schematic
that seems to be CLOSE to my 1996 made unit but it doesn't
seem to be exact so it's frustrating. If the issue is a
charging IC which I assume is proprietary to APC, I imagine
it's impossible to source from somewhere and thus, the UPS is
irreparable. Yes?
--David

Post by Mihalik Máté
Hello,
My ups was working fine, the capacitor replacement is a
method of preventing problems before they happen due to
aging. I replaced only the smaller capacitors, the large
spraguelytic buffer caps next to the heatsinks do not need
replacement most of the time. If your ups does not charge
the batteries, it might be due to one or more blown
resistors in the charging circuit, or a semiconductor died
(eg a transistor or the charging IC)
2017. márc. 25. du. 4:35 ezt írta ("David Ranch"
Hello Mihalik,
When you say "replaced the old capacitors", are you
talking about the big electrolytic caps on the board or
also all the small caps scattered around on the boards
as well? If I may ask, what were the symptoms of the UPS
failure that after replacing the caps, the UPS worked again?
I have a 1996 SUA1000 that won't charge it's batteries
but it fine otherwise that I'd like to repair if
possible. I went through it multiple times, didn't see
any component burn marks, all fuses are OK (big and
small), no bulging capacitors, went through all the caps
with an ESR meter and they all seemed ok, etc.
--David

Actually both arguments have truth. Older units were
made with different preferences and marketing strategy
in mind than newer ones. Now companies do not make
devices which last for two decades but that is for
multiple reasons. One is that they realized if they
made so, people wouldn't be forced to buy new devices
which is not profitable in the long run. Other reason
is that new devices quickly deprecate older ones in
terms of features, so there is no point in making them
last for a long time. I find this later one less
important when talking about consumer grade UPSes
though, since the concept remains the same through
time: you need backup power and pc manage features, and
units had this back in the 90s already just like they
do now. So personally I find little motivation to
replace my old SU900I which will turn 23 years old this
year and works just as fine as any newer would,
especially now that I replaced the old capacitors.
You cannot, however, precisely judge newer units
against old ones. I've seen compaq ups-es stored in
2016 from 1998 with their original batteries left
inside and they work well after a battery replacement.
Of course this means that despite their age, they have
seen little or no use at all in the past 18 years,
whereas some of the sua750 units made in 2006 already
had 2-3 battery replacements and were utilized
extensively in the past 10 years. I think if you
refurbish the units every 6 years and you operate them
in a controlled environment, then you will likely have
a long lasting ups no matter if new or old.

[Pavel Boček]

The resistors mentioned are around the IC14, the XD3602020. Some chinese
sources claim to have them (most likely removed from dead boards) if you
need replacement. Judging by the date codes it was assembled in early 1996
so it's over two decades old.




The orange capacitors do not strike me as anything good familiar though I
think I have seen them before, just don't remember the manufacturer, I think
it was come dead brand. Can you get the manufacturer and series? Are you
positive all the 22uF caps measure at least 18 uF and reasonable ESR?
Usually they loose capacitance and the ESR skyrockets. One of them is
directly on this microchip, I'd guess it's some PWM controller and/or
comparator so bad cap can affect the operation. I must admit I've never had
this problem so I did not really analyse the charging so close.




Most units claim to be able to actually set the voltage so it maybe also
communicates with the CPU, though I have never seen that working. (the UPS
reported changed values but the output was still the same). I guess it only
works in the latest generations (3+) Smart-UPS, if at all.
--
S uctivÃœm pozdravem/best regards,

Pavel Boček
Jabber: ***@jabber.cz
[phone]
http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors and
more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)


---------- Původní zpráva ----------
Od: David Ranch <***@trinnet.net>
Komu: Apcupsd Discussion List <apcupsd-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Datum: 27. 3. 2017 0:14:59
Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] Refurbishing old APC UPSes

"

Ok.. my website is back up and I've uploaded pictures of the top and bottom
of the PCB. 

Mihalik: does this board look about right for the components you recommended
to check?

   http://www.trinityos.com/SCRATCH/APC-SU1000-schematic/
(http://www.trinityos.com/SCRATCH/APC-SU1000-schematic/)

--David



On 03/25/2017 12:55 PM, David Ranch wrote:

"
I'm working on posting two high-res pictures of the PCB (front and back)
just to make sure we're talking about the same board here.  This might take
a while as the Internet routing to my website sites seems to be broken.  The
URL will also include the ?Russian? schematic PDF I found.  It's not the
right on but it's close in many places.

--David



On 03/25/2017 12:40 PM, Mihalik Máté wrote:

"
The circuit board has the component numbers printed on it(some boards have
the numbers on both the component side and on the soldering side as well) so
you should be able to locate them by the numbers I wrote. Replace them if
needed with components with the same part number, or if it is not available,
then something with closely similar specifications. 



2017. márc. 25. du. 7:54 ezt írta ("Mihalik Máté" <***@gmail.com
(mailto:***@gmail.com)>):
"

Yes. It is rare that the charger ic goes bad in that generation of apc upses
though. Give the listed components a check and see if they are ok. 



2017. márc. 25. du. 7:46 ezt írta ("David Ranch" <***@trinnet.net
(mailto:***@trinnet.net)>):
"

Replacing the resistors or a transistor is no big deal if I can figure out
how to identify it.  I found one schematic that seems to be CLOSE to my 1996
made unit but it doesn't seem to be exact so it's frustrating.  If the issue
is a charging IC which I assume is proprietary to APC, I imagine it's
impossible to source from somewhere and thus, the UPS is irreparable.  Yes?

--David





On 03/25/2017 09:15 AM, Mihalik Máté wrote:

"

Hello, 
My ups was working fine, the capacitor replacement is a method of preventing
problems before they happen due to aging. I replaced only the smaller
capacitors, the large spraguelytic buffer caps next to the heatsinks do not
need replacement most of the time. If your ups does not charge the
batteries, it might be due to one or more blown resistors in the charging
circuit, or a semiconductor died (eg a transistor or the charging IC)




2017. márc. 25. du. 4:35 ezt írta ("David Ranch" <***@trinnet.net
(mailto:***@trinnet.net)>):
"
Hello Mihalik,

When you say "replaced the old capacitors", are you talking about the big
electrolytic caps on the board or also all the small caps scattered around
on the boards as well?  If I may ask, what were the symptoms of the UPS
failure that after replacing the caps, the UPS worked again?

I have a 1996 SUA1000 that won't charge it's batteries but it fine otherwise
that I'd like to repair if possible.  I went through it multiple times,
didn't see any component burn marks, all fuses are OK (big and small), no
bulging capacitors, went through all the caps with an ESR meter and they all
seemed ok, etc.

--David



On 03/25/2017 08:22 AM, Mihalik Máté wrote:

"
Actually both arguments have truth. Older units were made with different
preferences and marketing strategy in mind than newer ones. Now companies do
not make devices which last for two decades but that is for multiple
reasons. One is that they realized if they made so, people wouldn't be
forced to buy new devices which is not profitable in the long run.  Other
reason is that new devices quickly deprecate older ones in terms of
features, so there is no point in making them last for a long time. I find
this later one less important when talking about consumer grade UPSes
though, since the concept remains the same through time: you need backup
power and pc manage features, and units had this back in the 90s already
just like they do now. So personally I find little motivation to replace my
old SU900I which will turn 23 years old this year and works just as fine as
any newer would, especially now that I replaced the old capacitors. 



You cannot, however, precisely judge newer units against old ones.  I've
seen compaq ups-es stored in 2016 from 1998 with their original batteries
left inside and they work well after a battery replacement.  Of course this
means that despite their age, they have seen little or no use at all in the
past 18 years, whereas some of the sua750 units made in 2006 already had 2-3
battery replacements and were utilized extensively in the past 10 years. I
think if you refurbish the units every 6 years and you operate them in a
controlled environment, then you will likely have a long lasting ups no
matter if new or old.


"

"



"

"



"

" "

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

[William Smith]

Wow, great resource!

Anyone know a source for data sheets for the ICs? I've been trying to determine the function of VR1, which is connected to one of the inputs of an APC2010, but Google either finds a chip resistor or a twisty little maze of 'data sheet' click-bait sites, all alike (in not having the data Sheet)

Thanks!

William P N Smith
ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc.

The resistors mentioned are around the IC14, the XD3602020. Some chinese sources claim to have them (most likely removed from dead boards) if you need replacement. Judging by the date codes it was assembled in early 1996 so it's over two decades old.
The orange capacitors do not strike me as anything good familiar though I think I have seen them before, just don't remember the manufacturer, I think it was come dead brand. Can you get the manufacturer and series? Are you positive all the 22uF caps measure at least 18 uF and reasonable ESR? Usually they loose capacitance and the ESR skyrockets. One of them is directly on this microchip, I'd guess it's some PWM controller and/or comparator so bad cap can affect the operation. I must admit I've never had this problem so I did not really analyse the charging so close.
Most units claim to be able to actually set the voltage so it maybe also communicates with the CPU, though I have never seen that working. (the UPS reported changed values but the output was still the same). I guess it only works in the latest generations (3+) Smart-UPS, if at all.
--
S uctivÃœm pozdravem/best regards,
Pavel Boček
[phone]
http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors and more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)
---------- Původní zpráva ----------
Datum: 27. 3. 2017 0:14:59
Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] Refurbishing old APC UPSes
Ok.. my website is back up and I've uploaded pictures of the top and bottom of the PCB.
Mihalik: does this board look about right for the components you recommended to check?
http://www.trinityos.com/SCRATCH/APC-SU1000-schematic/
--David
I'm working on posting two high-res pictures of the PCB (front and back) just to make sure we're talking about the same board here. This might take a while as the Internet routing to my website sites seems to be broken. The URL will also include the ?Russian? schematic PDF I found. It's not the right on but it's close in many places.
--David
The circuit board has the component numbers printed on it(some boards have the numbers on both the component side and on the soldering side as well) so you should be able to locate them by the numbers I wrote. Replace them if needed with components with the same part number, or if it is not available, then something with closely similar specifications.
Yes. It is rare that the charger ic goes bad in that generation of apc upses though. Give the listed components a check and see if they are ok.
Replacing the resistors or a transistor is no big deal if I can figure out how to identify it. I found one schematic that seems to be CLOSE to my 1996 made unit but it doesn't seem to be exact so it's frustrating. If the issue is a charging IC which I assume is proprietary to APC, I imagine it's impossible to source from somewhere and thus, the UPS is irreparable. Yes?
--David
Hello,
My ups was working fine, the capacitor replacement is a method of preventing problems before they happen due to aging. I replaced only the smaller capacitors, the large spraguelytic buffer caps next to the heatsinks do not need replacement most of the time. If your ups does not charge the batteries, it might be due to one or more blown resistors in the charging circuit, or a semiconductor died (eg a transistor or the charging IC)
Hello Mihalik,
When you say "replaced the old capacitors", are you talking about the big electrolytic caps on the board or also all the small caps scattered around on the boards as well? If I may ask, what were the symptoms of the UPS failure that after replacing the caps, the UPS worked again?
I have a 1996 SUA1000 that won't charge it's batteries but it fine otherwise that I'd like to repair if possible. I went through it multiple times, didn't see any component burn marks, all fuses are OK (big and small), no bulging capacitors, went through all the caps with an ESR meter and they all seemed ok, etc.
--David
Actually both arguments have truth. Older units were made with different preferences and marketing strategy in mind than newer ones. Now companies do not make devices which last for two decades but that is for multiple reasons. One is that they realized if they made so, people wouldn't be forced to buy new devices which is not profitable in the long run. Other reason is that new devices quickly deprecate older ones in terms of features, so there is no point in making them last for a long time. I find this later one less important when talking about consumer grade UPSes though, since the concept remains the same through time: you need backup power and pc manage features, and units had this back in the 90s already just like they do now. So personally I find little motivation to replace my old SU900I which will turn 23 years old this year and works just as fine as any newer would, especially now that I replaced the old capacitors.
You cannot, however, precisely judge newer units against old ones. I've seen compaq ups-es stored in 2016 from 1998 with their original batteries left inside and they work well after a battery replacement. Of course this means that despite their age, they have seen little or no use at all in the past 18 years, whereas some of the sua750 units made in 2006 already had 2-3 battery replacements and were utilized extensively in the past 10 years. I think if you refurbish the units every 6 years and you operate them in a controlled environment, then you will likely have a long lasting ups no matter if new or old.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
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https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
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https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users

[David Ranch]

Yes.. I think I got that PDF off one of those ClickBait sites though I
couldn't find any viruses in it etc (you've been warned :-)

As far as VR1, I initially thought it might control the float voltage
for the UPS but moving it didn't change a thing. Then again, my beige
1996-era UPS has failed so maybe this is part of my problem.

--david

Post by William Smith
Wow, great resource!
Anyone know a source for data sheets for the ICs? I've been trying to
determine the function of VR1, which is connected to one of the inputs
of an APC2010, but Google either finds a chip resistor or a twisty
little maze of 'data sheet' click-bait sites, all alike (in not having
the data Sheet)
Thanks!

[Mihalik Máté]

I think VR1 is responsible for sensing the current (load level), so it is
best not to adjust it in any way. Any smart ups model above first or second
generation have most of the parameters set by software, calibrated
specifically to the components of the board it is installed on (one
exception might be the load level, as it is in this case with VR1 I think).
This means that for any smart ups model made after 1994 you either have to
calibrate the settings via serial port, or find the corresponding precision
resistors responsible for measuring the values of interest and replace
those (eg. input line voltage sense, battery charger voltage, etc...)

Post by William Smith
Wow, great resource!
Anyone know a source for data sheets for the ICs? I've been trying to
determine the function of VR1, which is connected to one of the inputs of
an APC2010, but Google either finds a chip resistor or a twisty little maze
of 'data sheet' click-bait sites, all alike (in not having the data Sheet)
Thanks!
William P N Smith
ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc.
The resistors mentioned are around the IC14, the XD3602020. Some chinese
sources claim to have them (most likely removed from dead boards) if you
need replacement. Judging by the date codes it was assembled in early 1996
so it's over two decades old.
The orange capacitors do not strike me as anything good familiar though I
think I have seen them before, just don't remember the manufacturer, I
think it was come dead brand. Can you get the manufacturer and series? Are
you positive all the 22uF caps measure at least 18 uF and reasonable ESR?
Usually they loose capacitance and the ESR skyrockets. One of them is
directly on this microchip, I'd guess it's some PWM controller and/or
comparator so bad cap can affect the operation. I must admit I've never had
this problem so I did not really analyse the charging so close.
Most units claim to be able to actually set the voltage so it maybe also
communicates with the CPU, though I have never seen that working. (the UPS
reported changed values but the output was still the same). I guess it only
works in the latest generations (3+) Smart-UPS, if at all.
--
S uctivÃœm pozdravem/best regards,
Pavel Boček
[phone] <+420%20739%20190%20151>
http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors and more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)
---------- Původní zpráva ----------
Datum: 27. 3. 2017 0:14:59
Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] Refurbishing old APC UPSes
Ok.. my website is back up and I've uploaded pictures of the top and bottom of the PCB.
Mihalik: does this board look about right for the components you recommended to check?
http://www.trinityos.com/SCRATCH/APC-SU1000-schematic/
--David
I'm working on posting two high-res pictures of the PCB (front and back)
just to make sure we're talking about the same board here. This might take
a while as the Internet routing to my website sites seems to be broken.
The URL will also include the ?Russian? schematic PDF I found. It's not
the right on but it's close in many places.
--David
The circuit board has the component numbers printed on it(some boards have
the numbers on both the component side and on the soldering side as well)
so you should be able to locate them by the numbers I wrote. Replace them
if needed with components with the same part number, or if it is not
available, then something with closely similar specifications.
Yes. It is rare that the charger ic goes bad in that generation of apc
upses though. Give the listed components a check and see if they are ok.
Replacing the resistors or a transistor is no big deal if I can figure out
how to identify it. I found one schematic that seems to be CLOSE to my
1996 made unit but it doesn't seem to be exact so it's frustrating. If the
issue is a charging IC which I assume is proprietary to APC, I imagine it's
impossible to source from somewhere and thus, the UPS is irreparable. Yes?
--David
Hello,
My ups was working fine, the capacitor replacement is a method of
preventing problems before they happen due to aging. I replaced only the
smaller capacitors, the large spraguelytic buffer caps next to the
heatsinks do not need replacement most of the time. If your ups does not
charge the batteries, it might be due to one or more blown resistors in the
charging circuit, or a semiconductor died (eg a transistor or the charging
IC)
Hello Mihalik,
When you say "replaced the old capacitors", are you talking about the big
electrolytic caps on the board or also all the small caps scattered around
on the boards as well? If I may ask, what were the symptoms of the UPS
failure that after replacing the caps, the UPS worked again?
I have a 1996 SUA1000 that won't charge it's batteries but it fine
otherwise that I'd like to repair if possible. I went through it multiple
times, didn't see any component burn marks, all fuses are OK (big and
small), no bulging capacitors, went through all the caps with an ESR meter
and they all seemed ok, etc.
--David
Actually both arguments have truth. Older units were made with different
preferences and marketing strategy in mind than newer ones. Now companies
do not make devices which last for two decades but that is for multiple
reasons. One is that they realized if they made so, people wouldn't be
forced to buy new devices which is not profitable in the long run. Other
reason is that new devices quickly deprecate older ones in terms of
features, so there is no point in making them last for a long time. I find
this later one less important when talking about consumer grade UPSes
though, since the concept remains the same through time: you need backup
power and pc manage features, and units had this back in the 90s already
just like they do now. So personally I find little motivation to replace my
old SU900I which will turn 23 years old this year and works just as fine as
any newer would, especially now that I replaced the old capacitors.
You cannot, however, precisely judge newer units against old ones. I've
seen compaq ups-es stored in 2016 from 1998 with their original batteries
left inside and they work well after a battery replacement. Of course this
means that despite their age, they have seen little or no use at all in the
past 18 years, whereas some of the sua750 units made in 2006 already had
2-3 battery replacements and were utilized extensively in the past 10
years. I think if you refurbish the units every 6 years and you operate
them in a controlled environment, then you will likely have a long lasting
ups no matter if new or old.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot______
_________________________________________
Apcupsd-users mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users
------------------------------------------------------------
------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Apcupsd-users mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users
------------------------------------------------------------
------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Apcupsd-users mailing list
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/apcupsd-users

[David Ranch]

Hello Pavel,

Post by Pavel Boček
The resistors mentioned are around the IC14, the XD3602020. Some
chinese sources claim to have them (most likely removed from dead
boards) if you need replacement. Judging by the date codes it was
assembled in early 1996 so it's over two decades old.

Yeah though I sure would like to be able to prove the IC is bad before
removing it and putting in a PULL in it's place and hoping for any
better results.

Post by Pavel Boček
The orange capacitors do not strike me as anything good familiar
though I think I have seen them before, just don't remember the
manufacturer, I think it was come dead brand. Can you get the
manufacturer and series?

The seven orange caps are labeled on one side:
Siemens
22uF (m)
50V
85degree C
85049
On the side indicating polarity, it also has a "FD"

Post by Pavel Boček
Are you positive all the 22uF caps measure at least 18 uF and
reasonable ESR? Usually they loose capacitance and the ESR skyrockets.

The cheap multimeter I have here that measures C doesn't do that via
probes.. it expects the component to be dropped into it's own slot
connectors. I'd consider buying a capacitance meter (ideally it would
measure inductance too) if someone could recommend a good one at a
decent price. As far as ESR, I have a well regarded Anatek Blue ESR
Tester) where I see ESRs of:

C13: 2.2 ohms
C34 : 3.0
C35: 4.9

C82: 1.9

C53: 2.3
C54: 2.2

C48: 1.8 (violet cap - "100uF 10V - brand seems to be "Surge" (M)
85degree C; 9602


C37: 1.3

C40: 2.8 (black cap - 33uF 35V CKRM - brand seems to be "iC" B 86degree C

--

Two big caps (light blue vertical)
(Aero M; assembled in mexico;
2700uF 40V 105C
VPR272M040N2L3B
202-0222
677-9624

C22: 0.08
C23: 0.09

--

one large yellow cap (on it's side)
APC
240-0200-A
20uF
KM50VAC
96-13

Post by Pavel Boček
One of them is directly on this microchip, I'd guess it's some PWM
controller and/or comparator so bad cap can affect the operation. I
must admit I've never had this problem so I did not really analyse the
charging so close.

Ok. I'm willing to try anything as I've already considered this UPS a
complete loss. If I can recover it, great and maybe I save myself $479
in not buying a new SMT1500 (I want full smart support from apcupsd).
If I kill this old US, that's ok. The other email threads going on
right now are right on that UPSes don't last forever but I'm willing to
try and fix it. ~$500 in savings is nice if it can be had.

Post by Pavel Boček
Most units claim to be able to actually set the voltage so it maybe
also communicates with the CPU, though I have never seen that working.
(the UPS reported changed values but the output was still the same). I
guess it only works in the latest generations (3+) Smart-UPS, if at all.

I've written down other various notes of the voltage and current the
board was supplying to the batteries when it should have been charging
them if it would be helpful. Ultimately, this 24V (dual 12v 12aH)
battery set was never getting enough current (though I think the voltage
was ok).

--David

[Pavel Boček]

Ah, Siemens. I think they din't make caps for a very long time. These values
are still OK, if also the capacity is good, than try those resistors
mentioned

--
S uctivÃœm pozdravem/best regards,

Pavel Boček
Jabber: ***@jabber.cz
[phone]
http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors and
more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)


---------- Původní zpráva ----------
Od: David Ranch <***@trinnet.net>
Komu: Apcupsd Discussion List <apcupsd-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Datum: 27. 3. 2017 2:01:51
Předmět: Re: [Apcupsd-users] Refurbishing old APC UPSes

"

Hello Pavel,

"
The resistors mentioned are around the IC14, the XD3602020. Some chinese
sources claim to have them (most likely removed from dead boards) if you
need replacement. Judging by the date codes it was assembled in early 1996
so it's over two decades old.
"
Yeah though I sure would like to be able to prove the IC is bad before
removing it and putting in a PULL in it's place and hoping for any better
results.


"
The orange capacitors do not strike me as anything good familiar though I
think I have seen them before, just don't remember the manufacturer, I think
it was come dead brand. Can you get the manufacturer and series?
"
The seven orange caps are labeled on one side:
   Siemens
   22uF (m)
   50V
   85degree C
   85049
On the side indicating polarity, it also has a "FD"


"
Are you positive all the 22uF caps measure at least 18 uF and reasonable
ESR? Usually they loose capacitance and the ESR skyrockets.
"
The cheap multimeter I have here that measures C doesn't do that via
probes.. it expects the component to be dropped into it's own slot
connectors.  I'd consider buying a capacitance meter (ideally it would
measure inductance too) if someone could recommend a good one at a decent
price.  As far as ESR, I have a well regarded Anatek Blue ESR Tester) where
I see ESRs of:

C13: 2.2 ohms
C34 : 3.0
C35: 4.9

C82: 1.9

C53: 2.3
C54: 2.2

C48: 1.8 (violet cap - "100uF 10V - brand seems to be "Surge" (M) 85degree
C; 9602


C37: 1.3

C40: 2.8 (black cap - 33uF 35V CKRM - brand seems to be "iC" B 86degree C

--

Two big caps (light blue vertical)
(Aero M; assembled in mexico;
2700uF 40V 105C
VPR272M040N2L3B
202-0222
677-9624

C22: 0.08
C23: 0.09

--

one large yellow cap (on it's side)
APC
240-0200-A
20uF
KM50VAC
96-13



"
One of them is directly on this microchip, I'd guess it's some PWM
controller and/or comparator so bad cap can affect the operation. I must
admit I've never had this problem so I did not really analyse the charging
so close.
"
Ok.  I'm willing to try anything as I've already considered this UPS a
complete loss.  If I can recover it, great and maybe I save myself $479 in
not buying a new SMT1500 (I want full smart support from apcupsd).  If I
kill this old US, that's ok.  The other email threads going on right now are
right on that UPSes don't last forever but I'm willing to try and fix it.  ~
$500 in savings is nice if it can be had.


"
Most units claim to be able to actually set the voltage so it maybe also
communicates with the CPU, though I have never seen that working. (the UPS
reported changed values but the output was still the same). I guess it only
works in the latest generations (3+) Smart-UPS, if at all.

"
I've written down other various notes of the voltage and current the board
was supplying to the batteries when it should have been charging them if it
would be helpful.  Ultimately, this 24V (dual 12v 12aH) battery set was
never getting enough current (though I think the voltage was ok).

--David

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Mihalik Máté]

Yes, we are talking about the same board here. Your best bet is checking
those components. I wish you good luck with it, I hope you can find the
issue.

Post by David Ranch
Ok.. my website is back up and I've uploaded pictures of the top and
bottom of the PCB.
Mihalik: does this board look about right for the components you
recommended to check?
http://www.trinityos.com/SCRATCH/APC-SU1000-schematic/
--David
I'm working on posting two high-res pictures of the PCB (front and back)
just to make sure we're talking about the same board here. This might take
a while as the Internet routing to my website sites seems to be broken.
The URL will also include the ?Russian? schematic PDF I found. It's not
the right on but it's close in many places.
--David
The circuit board has the component numbers printed on it(some boards have
the numbers on both the component side and on the soldering side as well)
so you should be able to locate them by the numbers I wrote. Replace them
if needed with components with the same part number, or if it is not
available, then something with closely similar specifications.

Post by Mihalik Máté
Yes. It is rare that the charger ic goes bad in that generation of apc
upses though. Give the listed components a check and see if they are ok.
Replacing the resistors or a transistor is no big deal if I can figure
out how to identify it. I found one schematic that seems to be CLOSE to my
1996 made unit but it doesn't seem to be exact so it's frustrating. If the
issue is a charging IC which I assume is proprietary to APC, I imagine it's
impossible to source from somewhere and thus, the UPS is irreparable. Yes?
--David
Hello,
My ups was working fine, the capacitor replacement is a method of
preventing problems before they happen due to aging. I replaced only the
smaller capacitors, the large spraguelytic buffer caps next to the
heatsinks do not need replacement most of the time. If your ups does not
charge the batteries, it might be due to one or more blown resistors in the
charging circuit, or a semiconductor died (eg a transistor or the charging
IC)
Hello Mihalik,
When you say "replaced the old capacitors", are you talking about the big
electrolytic caps on the board or also all the small caps scattered around
on the boards as well? If I may ask, what were the symptoms of the UPS
failure that after replacing the caps, the UPS worked again?
I have a 1996 SUA1000 that won't charge it's batteries but it fine
otherwise that I'd like to repair if possible. I went through it multiple
times, didn't see any component burn marks, all fuses are OK (big and
small), no bulging capacitors, went through all the caps with an ESR meter
and they all seemed ok, etc.
--David
Actually both arguments have truth. Older units were made with different
preferences and marketing strategy in mind than newer ones. Now companies
do not make devices which last for two decades but that is for multiple
reasons. One is that they realized if they made so, people wouldn't be
forced to buy new devices which is not profitable in the long run. Other
reason is that new devices quickly deprecate older ones in terms of
features, so there is no point in making them last for a long time. I find
this later one less important when talking about consumer grade UPSes
though, since the concept remains the same through time: you need backup
power and pc manage features, and units had this back in the 90s already
just like they do now. So personally I find little motivation to replace my
old SU900I which will turn 23 years old this year and works just as fine as
any newer would, especially now that I replaced the old capacitors.
You cannot, however, precisely judge newer units against old ones. I've
seen compaq ups-es stored in 2016 from 1998 with their original batteries
left inside and they work well after a battery replacement. Of course this
means that despite their age, they have seen little or no use at all in the
past 18 years, whereas some of the sua750 units made in 2006 already had
2-3 battery replacements and were utilized extensively in the past 10
years. I think if you refurbish the units every 6 years and you operate
them in a controlled environment, then you will likely have a long lasting
ups no matter if new or old.

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