Back-UPS ES (CyberFort II) suffer from the same problem as Smart-UPS
actually, though on much higher scale. There are also few more problems like
exploded transistors as the units are much dumber (and do not have so
advanced protections like the Smart-UPS) plus they are not so much overspec'
d as the Smarts. I have not yet seen any Smart with blown semiconductors so
while they may exist, this shows how robust the platform was.
OFC this is not a huge statistic. However, as companies throw away thousands
of these newer Smart-UPS series, replacing them with brand new unitsâŠdon't
you think they have a reason for that, like, they are not reliable? I mean
if 5 units out of 100 go bad, for most corporations it is better to just
throw all 100 away and get new ones. So yes, only few % may be bad, but they
get ird of all because of them.
I already have couple dozen units on stock which need refurbishing and the
guy I take them from confirms firms throw them away in huge numbers. He's in
the electro-waste business so he has first-hand experienceâŠ
For me it actually does not matter how old it is, the problem is the same in
ALL the units and I refurbish ALL of them anway before they go to sale. But
I always check them so I can also pretty much see what is their current
condition and make some guess how long would they work if I have not
processed them. It is pretty much guaranteed the problem will appear, it is
only a matter of time.
--
S uctivÃœm pozdravem/best regards,
Pavel BoÄek
Jabber: ***@jabber.cz
+420 739 190 151
http://www.hwworld.cz (kondenzátory, akumulátory, baterie aj./capacitors and
more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com (power supply reviews and more)
---------- Původnà zpráva ----------
Od: William Smith <***@compusmiths.com>
Komu: Apcupsd Discussion List <apcupsd-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Datum: 25. 3. 2017 15:42:38
PÅedmÄt: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible apc to
buy?
"
Oh, c'mon guys, be nice. We all know that failure rates and modes are
complex and require good statistical inputs and analysis.Â
Everyone here is seeing (essentially) anecdotal evidence at best. Unless
some of us have seen thousands of failed UPSen and done root cause analysis
on them, and not even APC is doing that for their older units.Â
IME the cheaper units (BE550, etc), when they need new batteries, have maybe
50% chance of needing a new UPS, as something's gone wrong in the
electronics. Only in rare circumstances do I bother to get a new battery and
re-qualify the used unit. Higher-end units (SUA1000 class) nearly always
work fine with new batteries, again IME.Â
Speaking of batteries, how do people like the RefurbUPS replacements? Â While
I've had issues with their refurbished UPS units, their batteries seem OK.
I tend to swap them out after 3-ish years anyway, as they are well under 50%
capacity by then. On the other tentacle, they are in a warm environment (up
to 95F, 32C in the summer months) so I don't feel they are awful.Â
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 25, 2017, at 10:18 AM, Pavel BoÄek <***@post.cz
(mailto:***@post.cz)> wrote:
"
I very well could. The point is, units made in 1998 are going bad about now.
Units made in 2010 are also going bad about now, surprise.
So the first worked for 19 years, the other for 6 years. If you don't see it
than there is no point in further discussion.
Besides, I have seen most of them from the inside (and repaired them) so I
know WHAT and WHY is going bad in there. But go on, continue making
statements with no knowledge of the electronicsâŠ
--
S uctivÃœm pozdravem/best regards,
Pavel BoÄek
Jabber: ***@jabber.cz(mailto:***@jabber.cz)
+420 739 190 151
http://www.hwworld.cz(http://www.hwworld.cz) (kondenzátory, akumulátory,
baterie aj./capacitors and more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com(http://www.hardwareinsights.com) (power
supply reviews and more)
---------- Původnà zpráva ----------
Od: Ted Mittelstaedt <***@mittelstaedt.us(mailto:***@mittelstaedt.us)>
Komu: apcupsd-***@lists.sourceforge.net
(mailto:apcupsd-***@lists.sourceforge.net)
Datum: 25. 3. 2017 14:41:43
PÅedmÄt: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible apc to
buy?
"
Post by Pavel BoÄek1500VA SU/SUA are are already of the newest APC (non-Schneider)
generation. Compared to the previous generations (1400VA models), they
have much shorter average lifespan.
That has not been my experience. And in any case a UPS manufactured in
2016 cannot be compared to a UPS manufactured in 1998 in terms of
lifespan. If the UPS manufactured in 1998 is still going then it has
lasted 19 years. If the
UPS manufactured in 2016 is still going then it has lasted 1 year.
Thus, the UPS made in 1998 has a longer lifespan. Q.E.D.
You cannot make this kind of judgement on the current generation of
UPSes until another decade or so in the future. All you can do now
is compare failure rates. And my experience is that the failure rates
are comparable.
Battery life is NOT the fault of APC - unless they are overcharging
batteries.
Post by Pavel BoÄekHaven't noticed any problem with charger ever, it is always around
13.6-13.7 V. May be it is because by refurbishing process removes the
source of that so I have not noticed.
You can tell by looking at the condition of the batteries when you
remove them when they have worn out, and how long the batteries last.
Post by Pavel BoÄekAs for SLA, gel technology is almost not used at all. Absoluje majority
of SLA is AGM.
Wrong. Most batteries RETAILERS are pushing AGM because they are more
expensive. Thus the retailer can make more money selling a more
expensive item. Because AGM is new it's touted as being better and so
when people are buying 4 batteries they are buying AGM. This is
compounded by the battery retailers who stock the garbage-grade cheapest
lead-acid gel cells they can find. So the consumer walks into
the store and buys the cheaper gel cell and it lasts 2 years maximum
then they go back to the battery store and complain and the battery
retailer tells them the more expensive AGM is better.
But people who buy large quantities of SLA batteries are still buying
gel cells because the good quality gel cells are cheaper than the
good quality AGM. That's why when you buy a cheap BackUPS 350va
you will find gel cells not AGM in them.
Once the AGM patents expire and the Asian manufacturers flood the market
with the garbage grade AGM batteries, the service life of the average
AGM will drop to 2 years and then people will no longer pay a premium
for them.
trash is trash, whether it's gel cell or AGM. We just have a lot
more gel cell trash out there so gel cells have gotten a bad name.
Ted
Post by Pavel BoÄek--
S uctivÃœm pozdravem/best regards,
Pavel BoÄek
+420 739 190 151
http://www.hwworld.cz(http://www.hwworld.cz) (kondenzátory, akumulátory,
baterie aj./capacitors
Post by Pavel BoÄekand more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com(http://www.hardwareinsights.com) (power
supply reviews and more)
Post by Pavel BoÄek---------- Původnà zpráva ----------
Datum: 19. 3. 2017 21:40:13
PÅedmÄt: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible apc to buy?
I have not experienced the same issue with the SMT series of UPSes.
Yes, the BackUPS units have been cost-reduced over the years. They
used to come in steel boxes. Then plastic. And my failure rate on
the plastic BackUPSes is much higher than the older steel-enclosed
SmartUPSes.
But my failure rate on the new SmartUPSes is no different than the old
SMartUPSes. I have had a new SMT 2200 fail and old 1500 UPSes fail.
And I will say with absolute certainty that the battery charger voltage
has drifted high on EVERY beige SmartUPS I've had when they got older.
It's imperative with these units to adjust the battery charger voltage
down just a hair or they WILL destroy your batteries.
With batteries you get what you pay for. The top-of-the-line Panasonic
lead acid gel-cell batteries will last almost triple the time that the
cheaper UB battery lead acid gel-cells last - unless you really are
absolutely spot on the mark with the battery charger voltage. Then
they will last almost as long as the Panasonics last.
Ted
Post by Pavel BoÄekIt is true that the newer the unit, the shorter lifespan it has, on
average. I have units 15-20 years old which would still kick for a few
years before refurbish would be inevitable, and newer generations 5
years old in the same state. It is partially because of the newer the
unit, the worse components you find inside.
However, I trust my refurbished units to work for next 20 years. The
only question is if you can make it yourself (or have it made by
somebody around). If not, than yeah, no other choice than
buy'n'pray it
Post by Pavel BoÄekwill last reasonable time, especially all the cheaper plastics. I
do not
Post by Pavel BoÄekhowever trust the new Smart-UPS series to work even so long as the old
ones do, they are new Schneider design (rather than constant tiny
upgrades of 2 decades old platform), likely designed with some
"warranty
Post by Pavel BoÄekengineering" in mind.
--
S uctivÃœm pozdravem/best regards,
Pavel BoÄek
+420 739 190 151
http://www.hwworld.cz(http://www.hwworld.cz) (kondenzátory, akumulátory,
baterie
Post by Pavel BoÄekaj./capacitors
Post by Pavel BoÄekand more)
http://www.hardwareinsights.com(http://www.hardwareinsights.com) (power
supply reviews and more)
Post by Pavel BoÄekPost by Pavel BoÄek---------- Původnà zpráva ----------
Datum: 16. 3. 2017 12:23:15
PÅedmÄt: Re: [Apcupsd-users] What is the best SOHO apcupsd compatible apc to buy?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512
The batteries cannot be deep cycled (below 20%)
NOT regularly. A few times during the life of the UPS, yes.
Recalibrating replacement batteries just isnt on
"recalibration" in the UPS means getting the UPS to report back as
close as possible the amount of time left on battery. It does not
mean "change the way the UPS functions in accordance with this different
kind of battery I want to use"
All in all very disheartening, the only way forward is
Skip and replace the APC every three years.
Not exactly. If you buy an APC UPS that was manufactured in the last 5
years or so, put in fresh batteries of the type that it came with,
that
Post by Pavel BoÄekare high quality, then it will likely work as well and for as long as it
did when new.
It is just not easy to find high quality lead acid gel cells anymore.
Now the higher quality batteries of that form factor are AGM. Whether
they will last longer and thus justify their higher expense - who the
heck, knows.
I was wondering if it is time for an "open hardware" UPS. Based on
modern micro inverter technology, lots of 1-wire temp and voltage
sensors and a raspberry pi zero? It could easily have endlessly
support different shutdown and restart scenarios. Could it be much
worse than APC?
There seems to be some misunderstanding as to what a UPS really does I
think. A UPS does not create power. It is also a horrendously
inefficient way of storing power.
Look at it this way. You have a network device like a router. It has
a motherboard that runs on 5 volts. You have a solar cell array that
on a good day produces 20v on a bad day produces 4v.
You want to power the network device.
Well you can do it 2 ways. The first way is to use the solar array
to charge a battery. Then the battery supplies DC power to an inverter
that converts it to 120v ac. That is fed into the router's power
supply which converts it back down to 5v
This is essentially how a UPS operates.
The second way is to take the solar array and plug it into one of
these
http://uk.farnell.com/diodes-inc/ap1509-50sg-13/ic-buck-reg-5v-2a-8sop/dp/
1825323
(http://uk.farnell.com/diodes-inc/ap1509-50sg-13/ic-buck-reg-5v-2a-8sop/dp/1825323)
Post by Pavel BoÄekPost by Pavel BoÄekThis part is a dc-to-dc regulator converter with an efficiency well
above 90% You take the 5v output from this, discard the router power
supply and feed the 5v right into the circuit board. No battery
needed.
Post by Pavel BoÄekWe do it the first way for CONVENIENCE only. Converting wall AC power
to DC then back to AC then back to DC. Wall power that might have even
been created with a solar array. But it's INEFFICIENT.
With electrical power, you can trade convenience for efficiency. A
UPS is the ultimate in convenience. So you give up efficiency in power
savings and the UPS designer figures since convenience is the most
important, you will be more than happy to give up long battery life
since you don't want to screw around with maintaining bank of
wet cells.
This is why honest-to-God telco equipment can be purchased to run off
48v power. Telcos want long battery life, so they accept the
inconvenience of maintaining the batteries, and to get the max battery
life they do not want to waste any battery power on inverters, so
they just leave the UPS out of the picture and power everything off
the 48v power.
Now here's my advice. You are doing all of this for a Mac Mini. Well,
what does a Mac Mini have that a Mac Power Book doesn't? Just
scrap the
Post by Pavel BoÄekMini and replace it with a PowerBook and you won't likely need a
UPS at
Post by Pavel BoÄekall.
Ted
Fergus.
Post by Ted MittelstaedtHi Fergus,
You need an XL with an external battery pack. If you contact APC
technical support and ask a presales question they will tell
you the
Post by Pavel BoÄekPost by Ted Mittelstaedtsame thing. there's no difference in types of batteries the XP
units
Post by Pavel BoÄekPost by Ted Mittelstaedtjust have more batteries that's all.
SmartUPSes that are Beige in color mostly these days don't
work. The
Post by Pavel BoÄekPost by Ted Mittelstaedtcomponents in their battery charger have drifted to the point
that the
Post by Ted Mittelstaedtbattery charger overcharges the battery. That shortens the lifespan
quite a bit Yuasa might be well known for motorcycle batteries but
I think the top of the line name in lead acid gel cells today is
probably Panasonic or Trojan. They are flipping expensive though.
There's no such thing as a deep cycle lead acid gel cell
regardless of
Post by Ted Mittelstaedtwhat the manufacturer says. You might experiment with AGM
batteries.
Post by Pavel BoÄekPost by Ted MittelstaedtThat would have to be done with a custom cable since I don't think
they make AGMs in the form factor you need. But ANY lead acid
battery
Post by Ted Mittelstaedteven deep cycle wet cell marine batteries for your trollng motor
will
Post by Ted Mittelstaedtbe killed by drawing down to flat.
Calibration is highly inaccurate on standard lead acid gel cells.
You
Post by Ted Mittelstaedtmust use High Rate gel cells They generally have an HR as part of
their part number. APC ships HR batteries in all new UPSes but I
have
Post by Ted Mittelstaedtseen the batteries are often mis-marked (if you peel the APC
label back
Post by Ted Mittelstaedtand read the battery specs) I suspect this is a little trick of
APC's
Post by Ted Mittelstaedtto make their UPS batteries look better in terms of how long they
last.
Post by Ted Mittelstaedt1) kept cool
2) low drawdown currents
3) don't draw past 20% remaining
4) not fast-recharged
5) Not undercharged
6) not overcharged
7) kept on continual trickle/topping charge
They are really fragile batteries. Unlike wet cell lead-acid
batteries
Post by Ted Mittelstaedtwhich are much tougher.
I also believe that APC calibrates their UPS battery charger and
their
Post by Ted MittelstaedtUPS sense circuits to the drawdown curves of the batteries they use
in their UPSes. That's another reason why the factory loaded
batteries
Post by Ted Mittelstaedtlast the longest. It's hard to find a replacement battery 3 or 4
years
Post by Ted Mittelstaedtlater that is a match.
When replacing the battery after a day put a multimeter on the
battery
Post by Ted Mittelstaedtterminals and measure the float charge voltage then compare it to
the
Post by Ted Mittelstaedtbattery-manufacturer-specified recommended float voltage. In my
opinion
Post by Ted Mittelstaedtthis is one of the killers to ups batteries - overcharging.
Ted
PS all of this does not change the fact that you need a generator.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512
Ted, thanks for the comprehensive reply. Very interesting, and as
usual I learnt a bit more about this stuff.
Post by Ted MittelstaedtHi Fergus,
Regular
Extended Length (indicated by the X)
Online
A regular UPS is really intended for short power outages of
less than 10
Post by Ted MittelstaedtPost by Ted Mittelstaedtminutes. Most APC upses and ALL of the "low-end" APC upses are
this
Post by Ted MittelstaedtPost by Ted Mittelstaedtway. That is why you can find APC UPSes that have very high VA
ratings
Post by Ted MittelstaedtPost by Ted Mittelstaedtand quite small batteries.
XL upses are intended for longer runtimes and can have external
battery
Post by Ted MittelstaedtPost by Ted Mittelstaedtpacks added.
Online UPSes are ones where the inverter is run continuously
these are
Post by Ted MittelstaedtPost by Ted Mittelstaedtbest for really sensitive gear that might reboot if there was a
momentary surge caused by a power transfer relay switching
between the
Post by Ted MittelstaedtPost by Ted Mittelstaedtmain power and inverter power.
To answer your queston #1 you need to tell us what your
intended use is.
Post by Ted MittelstaedtXL I guess, I have several SUA1500I UPSs and find I have to
replace the
Post by Ted Mittelstaedtbatteries every three or four years. We 'discover' they need
replaced in
Post by Ted Mittelstaedtthat they wont keep the server going for more than a few
seconds. Replaced
Post by Ted Mittelstaedtbatteries never calibrate meaning the UPS cant predict runtime
or capacity.
Post by Ted MittelstaedtThe protected device is a single macmini. New batteries can
easily keep
Post by Ted Mittelstaedtit going for about an hour.
I guess the key difference between an Regular and Extended Life
models will
Post by Ted Mittelstaedtbe the battery type. Is it to match the replacement battery to
the APC model?
Post by Ted MittelstaedtPost by Ted Mittelstaedt2) All smart UPSes display internal battery temp. You must add
probes
Post by Ted MittelstaedtPost by Ted Mittelstaedtto get them to measure external temp. Back-UPS generally don't
display
Post by Ted MittelstaedtOver the years I have found the internal APC temp sensor a very
useful
Post by Ted Mittelstaedtproxy for all kinds of weird things going on around the server.
Wouldn't
Post by Ted Mittelstaedtdo without it.
Post by Ted Mittelstaedt3) Recalibrating batteries only works twice during a battery
lifetime.
Post by Ted MittelstaedtPost by Ted MittelstaedtThe first is about a day or so after the batteries have been
installed
Post by Ted MittelstaedtPost by Ted Mittelstaedtand allowed to completely charge. The second is about halfway
through
Post by Ted MittelstaedtPost by Ted Mittelstaedtthe battery's lifespan. It isn't intended to be run regularly
and if
Post by Ted MittelstaedtPost by Ted Mittelstaedtit is, you will drastically shorten battery life (such as by
2/3 of it's
Post by Ted MittelstaedtUnderstood and I only really try it on new batteries. However I
have NEVER
Post by Ted Mittelstaedtsuccessfully calibrated a new (Yuasa NP or non-name) battery.
Hence the real
Post by Ted Mittelstaedtreason for posting the question. I need a SmartUPS with
calibration that
Post by Ted Mittelstaedtworks. I have tried this on 5-6 set of new batteries over the
years.
Post by Ted MittelstaedtPost by Ted Mittelstaedt4) If a lead acid gel cell is drawn down to "almost flat" it
severely
Post by Ted MittelstaedtPost by Ted Mittelstaedtshortens it's lifespan. I think you probably can get about 10
"flat drawdowns" out of one before it's junk. And, only when
it's new.
Post by Ted MittelstaedtPost by Ted MittelstaedtDrawing a 2 to 3 year old lead acid gel cell down flat almost
always
Post by Ted MittelstaedtOk, this is news to me. I see info on the web suggesting that
Yuasa NP?
Post by Ted Mittelstaedtbatteries can be deep cycled lots of times. I am I misreading
the info.
Post by Ted MittelstaedtHowever if I could calibrate them I would happily ensure they
only got
Post by Ted Mittelstaedt50% down. Currently by "almost flat" my apcupsd is configured to
discharge
Post by Ted Mittelstaedtto 80%. But given calibration fails...
Post by Ted Mittelstaedt5) killpower has nothing to do with the UPS.
Agreed, but it still something I need to work :-)
Post by Ted Mittelstaedt6) Reapplying power in an unmanned way to the machine when main
power
Post by Ted MittelstaedtPost by Ted Mittelstaedtappears is an excellent way to kill the machine because in
probably 50%
Post by Ted MittelstaedtPost by Ted Mittelstaedtof the power outages, when power comes back on there will be
about 2-3
Post by Ted MittelstaedtPost by Ted Mittelstaedtminutes of power then there will be a couple of momentary
drops. Since
Post by Ted MittelstaedtPost by Ted Mittelstaedtthe UPS will be discharged at that time it will drop power to
the load
Post by Ted MittelstaedtPost by Ted Mittelstaedtand that's right during the time the PC is booting. Basically,
if the
Post by Ted MittelstaedtPost by Ted Mittelstaedtmachine is within driving distance - you should NEVER configure
it to
Post by Ted MittelstaedtPost by Ted Mittelstaedtautomatically startup when power comes back after a power loss.
Yes. You are correct, and that is exactly the nature of the cuts
we see.
Post by Ted MittelstaedtHowever the period of flakey power lasts around 10min in most
cases, hence
Post by Ted Mittelstaedtmy goal of trying to keep the server going for 30-40min. That
normally
Post by Ted Mittelstaedtsee us past most flakey power periods. If the cut is longer than
an hour
Post by Ted Mittelstaedt(we see cuts of 5-6 multihour hour cuts a year), then the server
can
Post by Ted Mittelstaedtbe shutdown. When power is reapplied after a cut of over an hour
we see
Post by Ted Mittelstaedtit is generally reliable. However I do configure the WAKEUP and
RETURNCHARGE
Post by Ted Mittelstaedtvalues which I thought provided some protection against "false
starts".
Post by Ted MittelstaedtPost by Ted MittelstaedtLastly, UPSes are NOT intended to supply power for long periods
of time.
Post by Ted MittelstaedtPost by Ted MittelstaedtFor that you need a generator.
An hour is good enough. Followed by a controlled shutdown and
killpower.
and would like a recommendation for a new or I second hand unit.
with mixed success. Especially after changing or recalibrating the
batteries. Generally recalibrating fails which causes the apcupsd to
misbehave when it really matters.
with apcupsd.
Post by Ted MittelstaedtPost by Ted MittelstaedtPost by Fergus McMenemie-) 1000 or 1500 VA models
-) logs temperature along with the other APC status variables
-) lets me replace and recalibrating batteries
-) allows me to maintain power till APC is almost flat
-) allows killpower to do its thing (on a macos 10.6 - 10. 10)
-) reapplies output power when mains reappears.
Thanks in advance Fergus
======================================================================
Software Limited, Phone: (UK) +44 7721 376021
Old Stables, Far End, Boothby Graffoe, Home: (UK) +44 1522 810839
Lincoln, LN5 0LG, England Skype: fergusmcmenemie (rare)
======================================================================
Unix/Mac/Intranets/WWW/Perl Analyst Programmer
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----
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""
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Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
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_______________________________________________
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